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[DG]

Thank you. Added them to the list. ❦

Really? I heard that they can spawn upon a sleeping Adventurer even while accompanied by Companions because the latter will wander about despite being told to wait. Now I am very thankful they are getting banished to a specific evil biome with some buffs to compensate because I am way too much of a novice to know how to handle being surrounded. (I probably picked a very poor weapon choice as well—Archery.)

I am actually surprised we cannot eat cabbage! Someone must have really hated their veggies as a kid. So far, this seems intentional for Adventure Mode—which makes me very happy about my raws not being defective—because there are so few veggies we can eat that does make a commitment to a phyllophagous diet difficult like you said, and I assume it is this way to ensure we are cannot easily satiate ourselves to keep us on the hunt for sustenance. If only we could find some actual fruits and whole vegetables during early spring!

You're welcome. 

I've personally never had problems with bogeys appearing if I have a companion but I don't doubt that it happens. You're right about handling bogeys being something outside of novice scope. What I liked to do was roll up a dwarf peasant adventurer, focus on shield and dodge, make sure they spawned with some decent armor and then wander into the wilderness and save before nightfall and a bogeyman ambush. Save-scum until the bogey ambush triggered a martial trance in my dwarf (absolutely required) and then with luck, a lot of dodging and judiciously opportunistic hacking of bogey legs to slow them down, I've power-leveled my peasant. Even with a martial trance you're more likely to die than not at that skill level. I haven't done any serious adventuring since before the speed split changes to combat so I don't know if it's still a workable exploit strategy. As far as whether or not bows are a good choice, just play what you find fun or think fits the adventurer. Roleplay reasons will always give you a better play than min-max reasons (says a person who has done a far bit of min-maxing).

Regarding cabbage leaf in adventure mode, it actually makes sense with the current implementation. The cabbage leaf is modelling the outer green leaves of the head that we all throw away. The problem is that herbalism hasn't been implemented in adventure mode yet. For instance, your adventurer can come across a fisherberry and not be able to do anything more than set it on fire. In fortmode a herbalist can pick the berry and have an edible raw food item as easily as that. Once herbalism is folded into adventure mode you'll be able to pick the cabbage, throw away the inedible outer leaves that are the "cabbage leaf" and eat the deliciously crunchy cabbage head. Until then a vegetarian adventurer needs to make do with things that are completely edible and so don't require herbalism to "pick" the good bits, like lettuce and garden cress etc. That's why I've searched for the purple amaranth to corroborate your findings and see whats up with the leaves. Maybe the fact that you can mill them makes their otherwise edible leaves inaccessible to the adventurer (my current working theory based on nothing).

[TeaAndRum]

It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!

Ohh, then are Dwarves in Fortress Mode able to make tea out of strawberry leaves? If not, I think that should be suggested. I love how there is knowledge of real life recipes, alongside the toxicity of certain leaves from edible fruits and vegetables, to learn from all of this. If we are able to eat bitter melon leaves, I think we should be able to consume strawberry leaves—at least in Fortress Mode.

Also, I managed to find a tree with an overabundance of almonds, apricots, and walnuts! I can confirm that apricots are indeed edible.

I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.
Also poisonous plants would be FUN! You know, having your adventurer with low skill accidentally misidentify edible berries with poisonous ones, and get a syndrome, which could range from mildly irritating, to permanently crippling, to lethal. That could depend on the plant, and the dose. The lowest dose being licking. And adventurers, that are starving, or have a greedy trait, would automatically/more likely consume a larger dose.
Kind of funny that apricots are edible with their stone included!

It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!

Ohh, then are Dwarves in Fortress Mode able to make tea out of strawberry leaves? If not, I think that should be suggested. I love how there is knowledge of real life recipes, alongside the toxicity of certain leaves from edible fruits and vegetables, to learn from all of this.

Many people think alike:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171498.msg7814163#msg7814163

There is a thread for that? Nice!

[Fi]

Many people think alike:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171498.msg7814163#msg7814163

What a bunch of thoughtful like-minded people. ❦

With so many of us in agreement about simple things like strawberry leaves being edible and being thrown into the recipe lists to create anything else they can provide, we could hope to see them implemented soon when Toady finds time for it after the Villains or Magic stuff.

You're welcome. 

I've personally never had problems with bogeys appearing if I have a companion but I don't doubt that it happens. You're right about handling bogeys being something outside of novice scope. What I liked to do was roll up a dwarf peasant adventurer, focus on shield and dodge, make sure they spawned with some decent armor and then wander into the wilderness and save before nightfall and a bogeyman ambush. Save-scum until the bogey ambush triggered a martial trance in my dwarf (absolutely required) and then with luck, a lot of dodging and judiciously opportunistic hacking of bogey legs to slow them down, I've power-leveled my peasant. Even with a martial trance you're more likely to die than not at that skill level. I haven't done any serious adventuring since before the speed split changes to combat so I don't know if it's still a workable exploit strategy. As far as whether or not bows are a good choice, just play what you find fun or think fits the adventurer. Roleplay reasons will always give you a better play than min-max reasons (says a person who has done a far bit of min-maxing).

Regarding cabbage leaf in adventure mode, it actually makes sense with the current implementation. The cabbage leaf is modelling the outer green leaves of the head that we all throw away. The problem is that herbalism hasn't been implemented in adventure mode yet. For instance, your adventurer can come across a fisherberry and not be able to do anything more than set it on fire. In fortmode a herbalist can pick the berry and have an edible raw food item as easily as that. Once herbalism is folded into adventure mode you'll be able to pick the cabbage, throw away the inedible outer leaves that are the "cabbage leaf" and eat the deliciously crunchy cabbage head. Until then a vegetarian adventurer needs to make do with things that are completely edible and so don't require herbalism to "pick" the good bits, like lettuce and garden cress etc. That's why I've searched for the purple amaranth to corroborate your findings and see whats up with the leaves. Maybe the fact that you can mill them makes their otherwise edible leaves inaccessible to the adventurer (my current working theory based on nothing).

Are Dwarves the only race that can fall into a Martial Trance? They seem to be the race I read the most about falling into moods and trances, but that may have to do with Fortress Mode since they are the only playable race there, I think. Nevertheless, that is a very interesting and smart idea to train an Adventurer that way, and it may not be possible due to a speed-split change? What does that do in Dwarf Fortress? That is one thing that puzzled me... the precision-based attacks that allow us to choose which part of a creature we want to attack. I don't know if it has to do with my skills or the strength of the creature I fought, but it seems that some creatures are very good at evading my attacks and very fast—acting faster than I could possibly act which allows them to consecutively wrestle and harm my Adventurer before it is my Adventurer's turn. My speed was 1.000 at the time, and the creature I fought was called a "Butterfly Monster" in my Human Adventurer's pocket world, so I am hoping not every creature is like that. It gave me the impression that min-maxing (or training to maximize my important skills) is very important in Adventure Mode.

Huh, that actually makes a lot of sense, and I am surprised I did not think of that since I do tend to peel off and discard the outer layers of vegetables—cabbages, lettuces, onions, and sometimes potatoes despite their skin being edible and very nutritious—before I cook them; however, I wonder why that does not apply to lettuces in Dwarf Fortress since they also tend to have filthy and undesirable outer layers. Herbalism not being an attainable skill for Adventurers must be an oversight since it is basically foraging which is something Adventurers do throughout their adventures for sustenance, but perhaps we will see Herbalism made attainable for Adventurers when Toady is able to show Adventure Mode more attention after the Villains and Magic updates. I feel terrible for those who wanted to roleplay a Pacifist Vegetarian, though.

I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.
Also poisonous plants would be FUN! You know, having your adventurer with low skill accidentally misidentify edible berries with poisonous ones, and get a syndrome, which could range from mildly irritating, to permanently crippling, to lethal. That could depend on the plant, and the dose. The lowest dose being licking. And adventurers, that are starving, or have a greedy trait, would automatically/more likely consume a larger dose.
Kind of funny that apricots are edible with their stone included!

Right?! I would love to see those missing recipes be added to Fortress and Adventurer Mode to provide more versatility to certain leaves, fruits, and vegetables. You're getting me hyped up with all of these brilliant ideas. ❦

Poisonous plants would stop us from carelessly picking and trying every vegetable we find, and I really like that idea. They could change the whole "lick" thing to an option we can use to test objects based on taste, and as DG mentioned, we are missing Herbalism in Adventure Mode, and I believe that could help Adventurers and Dwarves identify what is and is not poisonous based on "l"ooking at their descriptions before picking them (Herbalism will provide more information about vegetables when picked and checked within inventories). Licking the vegetables—or any poisoned item—would have a chance to convey the slightest of their poisonous effects as well as a high chance to resist them, since it is slight dosage after all from merely a lick, and would provide a more detailed description about the item when inspected after being licked.

Oh, and I did see something called an "apricot pit" in the tree, I think, so I believe they are automatically spat out onto the ground when the Adventurer or NPC finishes consuming the edible parts of the apricot; although, I would not put it pass characters in Dwarf Fortress eating the whole thing then potentially dying to asphyxiation due to the pit since deaths seem to be silly in this game, lol.


_{(E: Fixed spacing, and added a tidbit more information.)}

[DG]

Yes, dwarves are the only creatures that will trance in vanilla because they have [TRANCES] in their raws. If you have a dwarven adventurer they are more likely to enter a trance when they encounter multiple enemies (like being swarmed by bogeymen) and it can really swing an otherwise impossible fight. The boost to resisting combat fatigue alone is very powerful.

A butterfly monster sounds like you encountered a demon. Those are meant to be a challenge even to experienced and well-equipped adventurers, not least of all because of their massive size. The game doesn't do a great job of highlighting size differences. From memory, the problem with bows and xbows in adventure mode is that once you fire it, you automatically reload and in that time your enemies are free to close on you which can be bad news. There isn't yet (unless it was changed without me noticing) anyway to fire and drop your bow to ready yourself for their charge. That's why throwing is generally regarded as superior. It's very quick, you don't have to worry about specific ammo and the damage can be laughably broken. The speed changes I mentioned was the implementation of quick and heavy strikes and the different run speeds and anything else that came with and after that. So take my musings with a grain of salt, they're not based on current mechanics. Kisat Dur is a good read in regards to becoming a better combat adventurer. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.495

No herbalism in adventure mode isn't so much an oversight as it is one of the myriad things jostling for the dev time required to be implemented. It'll go in sooner or (much more likely) later.

[TeaAndRum]

I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.
Also poisonous plants would be FUN! You know, having your adventurer with low skill accidentally misidentify edible berries with poisonous ones, and get a syndrome, which could range from mildly irritating, to permanently crippling, to lethal. That could depend on the plant, and the dose. The lowest dose being licking. And adventurers, that are starving, or have a greedy trait, would automatically/more likely consume a larger dose.
Kind of funny that apricots are edible with their stone included!

Right?! I would love to see those missing recipes be added to Fortress and Adventurer Mode to provide more versatility to certain leaves, fruits, and vegetables. You're getting me hyped up with all of these brilliant ideas. ❦

Poisonous plants would stop us from carelessly picking and trying every vegetable we find, and I really like that idea. They could change the whole "lick" thing to an option we can use to test objects based on taste, and as DG mentioned, we are missing Herbalism in Adventure Mode, and I believe that could help Adventurers and Dwarves identify what is and is not poisonous based on "l"ooking at their descriptions before picking them (Herbalism will provide more information about vegetables when picked and checked within inventories). Licking the vegetables—or any poisoned item—would have a chance to convey the slightest of their poisonous effects as well as a high chance to resist them, since it is slight dosage after all from merely a lick, and would provide a more detailed description about the item when inspected after being licked.

Oh, and I did see something called an "apricot pit" in the tree, I think, so I believe they are automatically spat out onto the ground when the Adventurer or NPC finishes consuming the edible parts of the apricot; although, I would not put it pass characters in Dwarf Fortress eating the whole thing then potentially dying to asphyxiation due to the pit since deaths seem to be silly in this game, lol.

Thanks, I'm glad that you like them! Yeah, lick could be used to give some idea of the plant, without being dangerous (unless it's a stingy plant, such as poison ivy). Like, a menu where you choose whether you lick, or nibble, or bite, or eat whole. Also, that could be set automatically, to spare time with certainly edible plants. Last option could have some risk of asphyxiation, in addition to it being a large dose. And those parts which don't provide nutrition when eaten, simply won't remove hunger.

[DG]

Don't hesitate to make a Suggestion forum post or add it to someone else's related suggestion. People have come up with many good ideas but have failed to put them in writing where the brothers will read it and potentially take note. This thread inspired a suggestion of my own so I've taken my own advice.

[Fi]

Yes, dwarves are the only creatures that will trance in vanilla because they have [TRANCES] in their raws. If you have a dwarven adventurer they are more likely to enter a trance when they encounter multiple enemies (like being swarmed by bogeymen) and it can really swing an otherwise impossible fight. The boost to resisting combat fatigue alone is very powerful.

A butterfly monster sounds like you encountered a demon. Those are meant to be a challenge even to experienced and well-equipped adventurers, not least of all because of their massive size. The game doesn't do a great job of highlighting size differences. From memory, the problem with bows and xbows in adventure mode is that once you fire it, you automatically reload and in that time your enemies are free to close on you which can be bad news. There isn't yet (unless it was changed without me noticing) anyway to fire and drop your bow to ready yourself for their charge. That's why throwing is generally regarded as superior. It's very quick, you don't have to worry about specific ammo and the damage can be laughably broken. The speed changes I mentioned was the implementation of quick and heavy strikes and the different run speeds and anything else that came with and after that. So take my musings with a grain of salt, they're not based on current mechanics. Kisat Dur is a good read in regards to becoming a better combat adventurer. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.495

No herbalism in adventure mode isn't so much an oversight as it is one of the myriad things jostling for the dev time required to be implemented. It'll go in sooner or (much more likely) later.

Interesting. It seems akin to a burst of adrenaline that can turn the tide of battle or change the odds in favor of the person experiencing that adrenaline boost, but why only Dwarves?

Based on what I am seeing in Dwarf Portrait, it is a demon—a very... unnerving aberration in appearance, and I am going to be careful around them with my Elven Adventurer to prevent her from meeting the same fate my Human Foraging Adventurer met. They seem to be very nomadic based on how much my Elven Adventurer picks up their scent when sleeping. Dwarf Portraits does quite a good job at showing me the unique sizes of a creature, and I am very shocked that such a large and powerful demon frequently roams about the way it does seemingly one or rarely two at a time. About Archery... I can confirm that firing an arrow from my bow does cause time to pass while I am reloading, and that is so disadvantageous and unwieldy. The time it takes to reload an arrow should share the same amount of time it takes for an arrow to soar to its destination the millisecond it leaves the Archer's fingertips. If the arrow reaches its destination before the Archer can reload, that is when they can be at a risk of too much time passing. Does Archery or Bowman decrease the time it takes to reload the bow as the Adventurer becomes more skilled with either combat skill? Archery does seem to state as much in the wiki, and Bowman does not have its own page nor a description beyond "allows characters to use bows more effectively". Through a happenstance of serendipity, I actually found and bookmarked "Kisat Dur" during my searches a few weeks ago regarding how combat works in Dwarf Fortress; although, it seems to primarily cover grappling/wrestling which I suppose is still important in close-ranged combat based on how much that "Butterfly Monster" grappled my Human Adventurer in my pocket world and my Elven Adventurer before letting go and fleeing in my primary world. Is close-ranged combat the only efficient way to fight in Dwarf Fortress? I am a bit disappointed about Archery being so inefficient due to how terrible reloading is, but at least there is Throwing which does seem hilariously strong if that comment I read about someone decimating an Animal Caretaker with strawberries is true.

Ah, I see. It seemed like an oversight to be because foraging and scavenging for sustenance—identifying and picking the edible parts of fruits, plants, and vegetables—is one of the primary aspects to being an Adventurer since food is not going to appear out of thin air for them. Due to the former, I assumed it would be one of the skills Toady would have implemented alongside the current existing skills Adventurers can learn and utilize during his initial development of Adventure Mode. Well, like I mentioned earlier, I am certain we will see it when he is able to finish Villains and Magic which will symbiotically benefit Adventure Mode.

Thanks, I'm glad that you like them! Yeah, lick could be used to give some idea of the plant, without being dangerous (unless it's a stingy plant, such as poison ivy). Like, a menu where you choose whether you lick, or nibble, or bite, or eat whole. Also, that could be set automatically, to spare time with certainly edible plants. Last option could have some risk of asphyxiation, in addition to it being a large dose. And those parts which don't provide nutrition when eaten, simply won't remove hunger.

Very brilliant ideas. ❦

I am in favor of any idea that gives us more ways to realistically interact with our environments and the objects we find within those environments. The options to lick, nibble, bite, and eat entirely could be shared with edible objects such as meats to allow us to test them and to ration them. The name of the item could change according to how much was taken from the item through nibbling or biting which will still stack with items of similar names (partially-eaten peach and half-eaten peach). This would allow us to essentially eat from the same item three times which will be less fulfilling than eating it entirely but helps with conservation or rationing our portions.

Oh! I forgot to mention this in my earlier comment, but poisonous plants could be used to brew poisonous beverages, too! I suppose they could be used to taint them as well such as the classic nightshade in tea. This would be a very fiendish mechanic that would fit in quite well with the upcoming Villains update.

Don't hesitate to make a Suggestion forum post or add it to someone else's related suggestion. People have come up with many good ideas but have failed to put them in writing where the brothers will read it and potentially take note. This thread inspired a suggestion of my own so I've taken my own advice.

I love sharing my ideas and making suggestions for all to see that could help improve a game I am passionate about playing, so I think I will do just that if your newly-inspired suggestion did not already cover what I have in mind.

How interested is Toady in seeking out, consuming, and digesting our suggestions?

[peasant cretin]

They seem to be very nomadic based on how much my Elven Adventurer picks up their scent when sleeping.

If the scent is death, bug innards, etc. then it's a night troll.

About Archery... I can confirm that firing an arrow from my bow does cause time to pass while I am reloading, and that is so disadvantageous and unwieldy. The time it takes to reload an arrow should share the same amount of time it takes for an arrow to soar to its destination the millisecond it leaves the Archer's fingertips. If the arrow reaches its destination before the Archer can reload, that is when they can be at a risk of too much time passing. Does Archery or Bowman decrease the time it takes to reload the bow as the Adventurer becomes more skilled with either combat skill? Archery does seem to state as much in the wiki, and Bowman does not have its own page nor a description beyond "allows characters to use bows more effectively".

Spoiler: Here's a rough guess of bow/xbow reload time (click to show/hide)

Tick count reload for Grandmaster bow/xbow (lvl 14) I'd estimate at around say 32-80, and Dabbling (lvl 0) being twice that.

That's my rough guess based on the number of combat messages you get (about 8 if you arena-test with lvl14 bow/xbow;16 if you have lvl0 bow/xbow).

For the arena-test you need Grandmaster Dodger&Shielder, full armor, combat prefs set to Stand Ground/Stand Ground, as you fire from an adjacent tile at a smaller, fully armored target.

Lowest tick count for melee attack would be 2:2 with highest at 5:5 for those roll-to-hit failure messages (NPC misses you). You'd add 1 extra tick for any shield block. Since you're at Stand Ground/Stand Ground, you don't add in any Dodger Jump away message which would be 3 additional ticks.

Something along those lines.

Is close-ranged combat the only efficient way to fight in Dwarf Fortress? I am a bit disappointed about Archery being so inefficient due to how terrible reloading is...

For many players, the reload time and the seeming randomness of volume damage = death via a thousand cuts discourages play as archer. There are interesting ways to play archer, but these require different expectations than those from other rogue-likes involving ranged combat where your character can William Tell your opponent.

If you want to run a archer character, regardless of reload time, you have to play a distance management oriented-game that revolves around NPC view range which is a distance of 20 tiles. Hostile NPCs happen to be oblivious to anything in the 21-25 tile safety pocket. It's from this pocket that you volume/volley arrows/bolts at the tile they stand on.

Unfortunately dwarf is the optimal choice for archer as they see the full 25 tiles whether day or night allowing them to make the best use of cover gained through visual stealth.

Stuff about grappling.

If a larger sized creature grabs your character, you will only get free when they let go. Legendary wrestler versus a much much bigger NPC who has maybe even dabbling wrestler = perpetual struggle to break grip. To avoid avoid being grabbed, you must (once you see the NPC has opted to grab attempt you) choose a single action behavior: to manually dodge away. Whether the combat message is they miss (roll to grab failure) or they do indeed make the grab!, the end result is that you will have dodged away, leaving one tile of separation between you and the NPC, thus grip breaking. This is only way.

Thematically it's definitely all technique driven Dwarf Fortress judo.

[Fi]

If the scent is death, bug innards, etc. then it's a night troll.

This is the creature that brutally mutilated my Human Adventurer and... well, felt up my Elven Adventurer up before it fled:



Is there a way to get more information about a scent? It showed up as "Butterfly Monster" next to "Strongest Odor" at the top left of Dwarf Fortress's client.

Spoiler: Here's a rough guess of bow/xbow reload time (click to show/hide)

Tick count reload for Grandmaster bow/xbow (lvl 14) I'd estimate at around say 32-80, and Dabbling (lvl 0) being twice that.

That's my rough guess based on the number of combat messages you get (about 8 if you arena-test with lvl14 bow/xbow;16 if you have lvl0 bow/xbow).

For the arena-test you need Grandmaster Dodger&Shielder, full armor, combat prefs set to Stand Ground/Stand Ground, as you fire from an adjacent tile at a smaller, fully armored target.

Lowest tick count for melee attack would be 2:2 with highest at 5:5 for those roll-to-hit failure messages (NPC misses you). You'd add 1 extra tick for any shield block. Since you're at Stand Ground/Stand Ground, you don't add in any Dodger Jump away message which would be 3 additional ticks.

Something along those lines.

From what I understood of those statistics, reload speed for bows is still detrimental at Grandmaster Archery and Bowman.

I really hope Toady considers my idea or something similar to it for making Archery doable by making improvements to the reload speed for bows since... it makes little sense that an entity can throw a rock and rummage for another rock within the depths of their backpacks with much more deft than a Grandmaster or Legendary Archer can grab the tip of an arrow from over their shoulder where their quiver presents them to ready upon their bows for firing.

For many players, the reload time and the seeming randomness of volume damage = death via a thousand cuts discourages play as archer. There are interesting ways to play archer, but these require different expectations than those from other rogue-likes involving ranged combat where your character can William Tell your opponent.

If you want to run a archer character, regardless of reload time, you have to play a distance management oriented-game that revolves around NPC view range which is a distance of 20 tiles. Hostile NPCs happen to be oblivious to anything in the 21-25 tile safety pocket. It's from this pocket that you volume/volley arrows/bolts at the tile they stand on.

Unfortunately dwarf is the optimal choice for archer as they see the full 25 tiles whether day or night allowing them to make the best use of cover gained through visual stealth.

That may be what I will have to do—keeping my distance and sneaking around—to stick to Archery because I really do not want to be funneled into a melee build to succeed in Dwarf Fortress, and what you shared does make me wonder if Archery was intended for stealth tactics even though that does not excuse how unwieldy it is in the heat of battle. I am a ranged person, and magic coming to Dwarf Fortress soon makes me ecstatic that I may possibly be able to maintain that play-style.

Moreover... why are Dwarves the only race that possess that trait? That is so strange to me when Elves are usually the ones with exceptional vision as well as 'Dark Vision' that commonly fit the Archery archetype across the vast majority of franchises and stories that feature them. I am starting to gain the impression that the "Dwarf" in "Dwarf Fortress" means Dwarves are superior in every aspect which leaves no room for playing as any other race—Combat Trances, enhanced vision, I am starting to wonder what else they have over every other race that will make my preferred race feel sub-optimal.

Lastly, I thought Dwarves could not wield bows but could only wield crossbows? I glanced over this detail from the wiki during my research, so I could be wrong.

If a larger sized creature grabs your character, you will only get free when they let go. Legendary wrestler versus a much much bigger NPC who has maybe even dabbling wrestler = perpetual struggle to break grip. To avoid avoid being grabbed, you must (once you see the NPC has opted to grab attempt you) choose a single action behavior: to manually dodge away. Whether the combat message is they miss (roll to grab failure) or they do indeed make the grab!, the end result is that you will have dodged away, leaving one tile of separation between you and the NPC, thus grip breaking. This is only way.

Thematically it's definitely all technique driven Dwarf Fortress judo.

Ah, I did not know about that, and I personally find that to be thrilling.

Thanks for explaining it to me, and it makes sense that a much larger creature can lock a creature smaller than it within its grasp even if they are a Legendary Wrestler; however, does Strength influence the chances of breaking free from a larger creature's grasp? If so, I have a feeling it may not if the smaller creature's Strength is lesser than the larger creature's Strength.

I am also wondering if dodging is my only way to keep my distance from a creature that is faster than me and is capable of charging me.



_{(E: Fixed a few of my usual inevitable typos.)}

[DG]

Dwarves are pretty cool, true. They have trances, strange moods, good vision, damage resistance, big livers, steel. Elves are immortal, at peace with wildlife (maybe that's why the butterfly monster let you go? probably not), don't kill grass when walking on it...Umm...More hair colour options? But dwarves have been worked on from the start for over a decade. The other races are still playing catch up with features or waiting for them to be properly implemented (like the elven proclivity to waste-not/want-not eat their enemies as noted in legends mode).

Peasant-cretin covered the mechanics well, all I'll add is that there are heaps and heaps of suggestions for fixes to ranged combat. The reload wait in adventure mode and the machinegun xbow rate in dwarf mode are the most common concerns. Dwarves (and human or goblins or elves etc) can use any weapon they are big enough for. They will even use bows in Fort mode if you buy one from a caravan, it's just a "cultural" restriction that they don't make them for themselves. I usually copy the human weapon raws to the dwarven raws because I figure they should be able to make any weapon they want, even if they prefer to use certain types. Also, dwarves of a certain outstanding size are meant to be able to wield very large weapons like two-handed swords in fortmode but there is a bug hanging around that causes the check to not be made (last time I looked).

Edit: Oh, and Tarn has confirmed (and reiterated to convince people over the years) that at least the first post of every suggestion is read. You won't get a reply because that would take too much time, but you can be confident that it will at least be read by them.

[Fi]

Dwarves are pretty cool, true. They have trances, strange moods, good vision, damage resistance, big livers, steel. Elves are immortal, at peace with wildlife (maybe that's why the butterfly monster let you go? probably not), don't kill grass when walking on it...Umm...More hair colour options? But dwarves have been worked on from the start for over a decade. The other races are still playing catch up with features or waiting for them to be properly implemented (like the elven proclivity to waste-not/want-not eat their enemies as noted in legends mode).

Peasant-cretin covered the mechanics well, all I'll add is that there are heaps and heaps of suggestions for fixes to ranged combat. The reload wait in adventure mode and the machinegun xbow rate in dwarf mode are the most common concerns. Dwarves (and human or goblins or elves etc) can use any weapon they are big enough for. They will even use bows in Fort mode if you buy one from a caravan, it's just a "cultural" restriction that they don't make them for themselves. I usually copy the human weapon raws to the dwarven raws because I figure they should be able to make any weapon they want, even if they prefer to use certain types. Also, dwarves of a certain outstanding size are meant to be able to wield very large weapons like two-handed swords in fortmode but there is a bug hanging around that causes the check to not be made (last time I looked).

Edit: Oh, and Tarn has confirmed (and reiterated to convince people over the years) that at least the first post of every suggestion is read. You won't get a reply because that would take too much time, but you can be confident that it will at least be read by them.

Hm... taking what you said in consideration in addition to what I learned about the pace at which Toady works on new updates as well as the time frames of release for those updates, I suppose it makes sense that the other races may not be as great as the Dwarves given the fact that Fortress Mode is Dwarf Fortress's first game mode and the Dwarves have been rigorously improved to what they are now due to being the only playable race prior to Adventure Mode's release. I did notice within World Viewer that my Elf is 262 years old, so it is pleasant to know that Elves do not need to become a Vampire nor a Werewolf, I think, to achieve immortality and being at piece with nature's denizens is a lovely and serene thing even though... I may have to kill some of them for food and crafting materials. Being unable to kill grass when walking upon it would probably make them exceptional Farmers if the same trampling mechanic applies to crops, but I do hope that they and the others races will be equally expanded upon when Toady finds the time to do so.

Ahh, okay, I thought they refused to or could not wield them for some reason which I assume had to do with their size or stature—the latter seeming to be the inconsistent case since their size or stature affects the weapons you mentioned them being unable to wield. Out of curiosity, why do certain skills have their names changed to include "dwarf" in it such as... 'Marksdwarf'? It is really great to know that there are so many others who have already voiced there concerns about Archery, and I am certain Toady already knows by now if so since this is quite an old game with many Veterans that care about the game enough to share their concerns and suggestions. Hm, is he the only developer of the game? I did see someone in the credits that shares a last name with him, so I am unsure.

That is reassuring and something I really appreciate that they do, so everyone who wants to share their ideas do not feel as though they are being disregarded or ignored. I might be overthinking this a little, but the first post being the part of the thread that the OP creates for the Devs and everyone else to share their thoughts about through sharing their own comments below it?

[DG]

I may have to kill some of them for food and crafting materials.

You could find a cave that connects to the underground and hunt some of the more unnatural creatures down there if you want to keep the "at peace with the (surface) wilderness" vibe. It's a long way to go to butcher something to eat. Less unreasonable to go there for crafting materials, maybe. It's also a great way to die to a giant spider or simply get lost and never see the sun again.

Out of curiosity, why do certain skills have their names changed to include "dwarf" in it such as... 'Marksdwarf'?

It's just to reflect that dwarves wouldn't think of or refer to themselves with a human mindset. So any man-compound word is changed to dwarf, or elf or goblin. The effect is a little diluted by the animal peoples being called badgerman or whatever. That's all in the raws, too. You can easily make it so that a marksdwarf is called a marksbeard or something if you wished. Or just change every race to use the same terms for fighters and crafters.

Hm, is he the only developer of the game? I did see someone in the credits that shares a last name with him, so I am unsure.

It's just him (Toady One/Tarn) and his brother (Threetoe/Zach). Tarn does the programming but they more or less collaborate on everything else like the planning, brainstorming and design. Kitfox Games will handle the steam release and they have a couple of guys working on the steam version tileset and some steam version music is already finished. But it's only the two brothers driving the game proper forward.

I might be overthinking this a little, but the first post being the part of the thread that the OP creates for the Devs and everyone else to share their thoughts about through sharing their own comments below it?

Yeah. So if this was a suggestion forum thread, your first post where you have the plant list would definitely be read by either Tarn or Zach or both. I assume that if the suggestion is interesting and good conversation continues in the thread they might read the replies, too. If it's one of the many repeat suggestions I would expect them to simply move on.

[Fi]

You could find a cave that connects to the underground and hunt some of the more unnatural creatures down there if you want to keep the "at peace with the (surface) wilderness" vibe. It's a long way to go to butcher something to eat. Less unreasonable to go there for crafting materials, maybe. It's also a great way to die to a giant spider or simply get lost and never see the sun again.

I am not completely against killing animals for food and crafting materials—only a little saddened by the fact that I have to do so regardless of my race or the game being played, and while visiting a cave seems to be a good idea, I do not think I am ready for one nor near one since I am in the middle of a forest. If there are Butterfly Monsters lurking about, I cannot imagine what are lurking within caves.

It's just to reflect that dwarves wouldn't think of or refer to themselves with a human mindset. So any man-compound word is changed to dwarf, or elf or goblin. The effect is a little diluted by the animal peoples being called badgerman or whatever. That's all in the raws, too. You can easily make it so that a marksdwarf is called a marksbeard or something if you wished. Or just change every race to use the same terms for fighters and crafters.

Ah, I see. I think Dwarves are the only race I have seen that change the name of their skills to match their race, and my Elf is still using the default names of the skills. I have no interest in tinkering with my raw, though—at least until I have learned the game through and through.

It's just him (Toady One/Tarn) and his brother (Threetoe/Zach). Tarn does the programming but they more or less collaborate on everything else like the planning, brainstorming and design. Kitfox Games will handle the steam release and they have a couple of guys working on the steam version tileset and some steam version music is already finished. But it's only the two brothers driving the game proper forward.

Interesting, so that is a relative of Toady's, and Dwarf Fortress is a family project. Browsing the forums and subreddit, I have only saw Toady mentioned in everything related to updates and what makes the game function, so I assumed he was the only person working on the game. That makes me feel a little bad about his brother, so I am going to make sure I remember him as well.

I thought Meph and Mayday were working together on the official tileset for the Steam version of Dwarf Fortress? Are they employees of Kitfox Games?

Yeah. So if this was a suggestion forum thread, your first post where you have the plant list would definitely be read by either Tarn or Zach or both. I assume that if the suggestion is interesting and good conversation continues in the thread they might read the replies, too. If it's one of the many repeat suggestions I would expect them to simply move on.

I see, so it is the top post that they read as in the very original post which starts the thread everyone comments about. Thanks for clarifying.

[peasant cretin]

It showed up as "Butterfly Monster" next to "Strongest Odor" at the top left of Dwarf Fortress's client.

Based on the DF client info, yeah that Butterfly Monster looks to be a demon. Night trolls have a "now you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions, while demons (and a few other creatures) always have a special attack. In this case, a deadly spittle.

From what I understood of those statistics, reload speed for bows is still detrimental at Grandmaster Archery and Bowman . . . That may be what I will have to do—keeping my distance and sneaking around—to stick to Archery because I really do not want to be funneled into a melee build to succeed in Dwarf Fortress . . . I am starting to wonder what else (dwarf) they have over every other race that will make my preferred race feel sub-optimal.

Reload time is a non-issue when you fire from 21-25 tiles out (preferably 23-25, to have a 2 tile margin of error). When I first started DF (v34.11), as someone who came from Angband, I somewhat randomly ended up playing ranger using the distance format, positioning at 25 tiles out. There's more to this, but if you muck around with archery I think you'll find it more rewarding than other rogue-likes. Instead of the classic hit point attrition-to-zero-first arrow hits NPC game, DF gives you a fire at tile cluster within 3 dimensions, with varying damage scales approach.

Running a Legalas "shoot from an adjacent tile" combat is possible, but the gulf between your Dodger/Shield user skills and the opponent's attack skill would need to be exceedingly high. I've done this, but it just isn't narratively sound and has always felt wildly exploitive, mechanically.

If you favor elf/human as a ranged player, you'll need to work within the constraints of being a pure daylight/aboveground archer. Yes, many elves, half-elves, humans and dúnedain frown.

. . . does Strength influence the chances of breaking free from a larger creature's grasp? If so, I have a feeling it may not if the smaller creature's Strength is lesser than the larger creature's Strength.

Roughly: an average-sized, average strength human = a large-sized, average-to-abv-avg strength elf/dwarf/goblin. So there will be instances where your superelven strength elf will be able to break a larger creature's grasp the "traditional" way as opposed to the "meta" single-action, manual dodge method. This will include humans and some night trolls, but nothing of larger variety.

I am also wondering if dodging is my only way to keep my distance from a creature that is faster than me and is capable of charging me.

The first priority in melee combat is to negotiate a creature's charge attack = damage their ability to stand, to deprive them of this very charge attack. If you get rundown by charge, you could incur a -50% stat debuff. From the min-max optimal POV, this means use a multi-action attack (quick attack + dodge away) to ground them.

[Fi]

Based on the DF client info, yeah that Butterfly Monster looks to be a demon. Night trolls have a "now you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions, while demons (and a few other creatures) always have a special attack. In this case, a deadly spittle.

You are right.

I am seeing demons with special attacks and night creatures with "Now you will know why you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions.

Reload time is a non-issue when you fire from 21-25 tiles out (preferably 23-25, to have a 2 tile margin of error). When I first started DF (v34.11), as someone who came from Angband, I somewhat randomly ended up playing ranger using the distance format, positioning at 25 tiles out. There's more to this, but if you muck around with archery I think you'll find it more rewarding than other rogue-likes. Instead of the classic hit point attrition-to-zero-first arrow hits NPC game, DF gives you a fire at tile cluster within 3 dimensions, with varying damage scales approach.

Running a Legalas "shoot from an adjacent tile" combat is possible, but the gulf between your Dodger/Shield user skills and the opponent's attack skill would need to be exceedingly high. I've done this, but it just isn't narratively sound and has always felt wildly exploitive, mechanically.

If you favor elf/human as a ranged player, you'll need to work within the constraints of being a pure daylight/aboveground archer. Yes, many elves, half-elves, humans and dúnedain frown.

Yeah, what I called "precision-based attacks" for focusing on parts of the body. I figured that would make combat in this game more rewarding in general—more engaging and realistic since we have to be tactical and knowledgeable about what parts of the body enables a creature to do what, and what will happen if we disable those parts of the body. Despite not yet getting into an actual fight, I already find combat in this game to be very rewarding. Despite every race's vision being limited to twenty squares (excluding Dwarves), I would not mind a Sentinel's play-style since it is yet another realistic feature of Archery regardless of its crippling reload times.

Also, of course they are frowning, their capabilities are being poorly represented in Dwarf Fortress in favor of the first word of the game's title, but as DG said, they will most likely receive the attention they deserve when Toady finds the time to do so—potentially after Villainy and the Magic stuff.

Roughly: an average-sized, average strength human = a large-sized, average-to-abv-avg strength elf/dwarf/goblin. So there will be instances where your superelven strength elf will be able to break a larger creature's grasp the "traditional" way as opposed to the "meta" single-action, manual dodge method. This will include humans and some night trolls, but nothing of larger variety.

Hm, I am going to make wild guesses here for the sake of clarity, and this is all based on Average Strength and average sizes relies on Strength:

• Animal People ≈ Human (Greatly varies with the species of the animal person.)
• Dwarf = Human (Human > Dwarf if bigger than Dwarf.)
• Elf = Human (Elf > Human if older and stronger than Human's capped strength.)
• Goblin = Dwarf
• Kobold < All

Probably terribly incoherent and incorrect, but those are my guesses if every race has different starting and maximum Strength.

The first priority in melee combat is to negotiate a creature's charge attack = damage their ability to stand, to deprive them of this very charge attack. If you get rundown by charge, you could incur a -50% stat debuff. From the min-max optimal POV, this means use a multi-action attack (quick attack + dodge away) to ground them.

Ah, okay, so I need to quickly attack them and dodge through multi-attacks until I manage to cripple them? That seems doable as an Archer as long as I have decent Dodging, and once I do cripple them, I assume I will be able to create space between us to finish them off with arrows, or is it advised to continue to finish them off with melee attacks? Finishing them off via melee would probably be a smarter idea if they have ranged attacks of their own that may come from their mouths.

Oh, and about that Shield User thing you were talking about, are creatures able to wield a shield or strap one to their forearms if they are wielding a bow at the same time? I am not sure how to train Dodger and Shield User to Grandmaster or Legendary without getting into fights and that seems to be the only way which... is not bad, I suppose.



_{(E: Forgot to add Animal People and Kobold to the list.)}