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Author Topic: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode  (Read 11069 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2019, 10:16:51 pm »

*Snip* (sorry, editing on a phone is a pain).
Worth pointing out that Adventurer isn't something that was added on later. It was there from the first release. The world has always been the main point and Adventurer was a way to explore it. As development progresses the border between the two modes should become more and more flexible.

It is, of course, rather undeveloped still compared to fortress and even with this 18 month+ update that's basically all Adventurer plus some cool fortress stuff thrown in, it's not there yet (as far as fortress mode is "there") with Toady mentioning what's missing in fotf recently.

So, um, --push train back onto tracks-- the more Adventurer suggestions the better really, but it'll still be without a coherent point for quite a while yet.

Toady in fotf on the state of Adventurer:
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.

Ha ha, I dunno - it still feels like it needs more structure, tied in to the societies and individuals.  Due to its relative microscope nature vs. fortress mode, it might be hard to shake that feeling.  I'm not done with the investigations though.  That was supposed to be an important rafter holding something like a game up.  But it feels like we still need some more basic above-board political structuring that'll let the world change, so it feels like you have a properly reactive story, rather than something on-the-balance destructive or oblivious.  Dwarf mode has these problems as well, but it can escape the feeling of them by having the whole fort there bustling and providing more fluidly creative options.


« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:21:20 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2019, 12:04:13 am »

*Snip* (sorry, editing on a phone is a pain).
Worth pointing out that Adventurer isn't something that was added on later. It was there from the first release. The world has always been the main point and Adventurer was a way to explore it. As development progresses the border between the two modes should become more and more flexible.

It is, of course, rather undeveloped still compared to fortress and even with this 18 month+ update that's basically all Adventurer plus some cool fortress stuff thrown in, it's not there yet (as far as fortress mode is "there") with Toady mentioning what's missing in fotf recently.

So, um, --push train back onto tracks-- the more Adventurer suggestions the better really, but it'll still be without a coherent point for quite a while yet.

Toady in fotf on the state of Adventurer:
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.

Ha ha, I dunno - it still feels like it needs more structure, tied in to the societies and individuals.  Due to its relative microscope nature vs. fortress mode, it might be hard to shake that feeling.  I'm not done with the investigations though.  That was supposed to be an important rafter holding something like a game up.  But it feels like we still need some more basic above-board political structuring that'll let the world change, so it feels like you have a properly reactive story, rather than something on-the-balance destructive or oblivious.  Dwarf mode has these problems as well, but it can escape the feeling of them by having the whole fort there bustling and providing more fluidly creative options.

It's fine! I cannot see myself editing comments on mobile in the way I respond to others, unless they change the language and how commenting works to mimic Reddit's, so I always respond to others here on desktop.

Hm, okay, so Adventure Mode has existed alongside Fortress Mode since the beginning of the game's development which is certainly news to me; however, Fortress Mode was the golden child while Adventure Mode was the frumpy and malnourished child that did not get as much attention and love and Fortress Mode did (probably a hyperbole).

I guess it is this way because strategic simulation games was their preference at the time, and a Roguelike was their secondary preference, but since I am not Toady nor ThreeToe, I have no idea why Fortress Mode had more precedence over Adventure Mode. As a fan of Adventure Mode, I wish it was the other way around, but that would just leave others who are fans of Fortress Mode feeling the same way I feel. Well, Adventure Mode's time will come as mentioned in FoTF and several times throughout this thread.

What I am anticipating the most is all of the mythical stuff—magic and whatnot—being expanded upon and melded into the game, but I am also looking forward to more core features being added and improved upon in Adventure Mode. Also, what he means by "on-the-balance destructive or oblivious" in relation to Fortress Mode? It seems like Dwarves are capable of causing the world they are in to react to them based on their achievements which includes the  activity and size of their fortress since other races seem to want to trade with them, go to war with them, and even threaten them (I do not know if forming alliances is possible). What else... Deities tend to visit with an ulterior motive of taking over a fortress, I am guessing, and other creatures tend to visit, to visit for citizenship, or to sneak with ill intent. Since I have not played Fortress Mode before, I could be oblivious about something that Toady and the Veterans know.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2019, 12:29:02 am »

Things just work out that way sometimes. Dwarf Fortress was a side project to Slaves of Armok which was rubbish. They realised this and polished up Dwarf Fortress released it and became an overnight (modest, cult, Indie) success. The big picture to them is the same as it was since they were kids. Procgen RPG with emerging storytelling.

Did you see the video from a couple of days ago? He talks a bit about that there.

--edit
There you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=farAaxCEkv8
(Recorded from livestream, doesn't start until around 10 minute mark).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 12:31:55 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2019, 01:43:58 am »

Things just work out that way sometimes. Dwarf Fortress was a side project to Slaves of Armok which was rubbish. They realised this and polished up Dwarf Fortress released it and became an overnight (modest, cult, Indie) success. The big picture to them is the same as it was since they were kids. Procgen RPG with emerging storytelling.

Did you see the video from a couple of days ago? He talks a bit about that there.

--edit
There you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=farAaxCEkv8
(Recorded from livestream, doesn't start until around 10 minute mark).

Oh? Slaves of Armok is actually a game? I thought Armok was merely a comedic omnipotent deity in Dwarf Fortress that just so happens to be us. I looked up the game and... well, it is precisely as you described it: Rubbish. No offense to Toady and ThreeToe since I am certain they were passionate about the game.

Dwarf Fortress is a very compelling and exciting game, so I am very thankful they saw its potential and decided to put more serious development into it to make it what it is now, and I got a taste of what they intended of the game—the storytelling and the RPG aspect of the game through Adventure Mode, despite being incomplete, where an Adventurer can make their own story and affect the world in some way though only on a minor scale. As for the video, I have not seen it. I started playing about... I want to say... sometime last month, so I probably missed out on a lot of information shared by Toady and ThreeToe because I have no idea where to find and follow where they commonly inform us—excluding Bay12 since this is their forums after all.

I will be keeping this video open in a separate tab for tomorrow morning. ❦
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2019, 03:52:25 am »

Everything is hidden. I think they like it that way.
What you can start with are Threetoe's Stories. This was an exercise in writing short generic fantasy stories and then analyzing them and asking just what kind of systems would be needed to achieve the various elements. They're very interesting.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html

Then take a look at the Mythgen prototype demo video. That's a taste of what the future holds (keeps getting put off due to distractions like Steam and Villains taking a year longer than expected, but it really is coming someday).

https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2019, 12:56:21 pm »

Everything is hidden. I think they like it that way.
What you can start with are Threetoe's Stories. This was an exercise in writing short generic fantasy stories and then analyzing them and asking just what kind of systems would be needed to achieve the various elements. They're very interesting.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html

Then take a look at the Mythgen prototype demo video. That's a taste of what the future holds (keeps getting put off due to distractions like Steam and Villains taking a year longer than expected, but it really is coming someday).

https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI

Ooo, this video was made in 2016, and Toady has explained and shown so much about magic and myth during that panel. I cannot even imagine how much more he has added to or changed that system within these past three years, but like you said, he has been placing it on standby because of Steam and Villainy, so little progress may have been made towards it here and there.

There are several stories in that list, so I will have to bookmark it for later; nevertheless, I am very excited about what is to come in the future of Dwarf Fortress—primarily the Mythgen and improvements to Adventure Mode, but I probably should be excited about being able to properly torture and interrogate people through Villainy as well.
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peasant cretin

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2019, 08:18:03 pm »

Despite every race's vision being limited to twenty squares (excluding Dwarves), I would not mind a Sentinel's play-style since it is yet another realistic feature of Archery regardless of its crippling reload times.
In daylight all player characters can see 25 tiles. NPCs for some reason have been restricted to an active viewrange of 20.

So player elves/humans needn't worry.


Ah, okay, so I need to quickly attack them and dodge through multi-attacks until I manage to cripple them? That seems doable as an Archer as long as I have decent Dodging, and once I do cripple them, I assume I will be able to create space between us to finish them off with arrows, or is it advised to continue to finish them off with melee attacks? Finishing them off via melee would probably be a smarter idea if they have ranged attacks of their own that may come from their mouths.
Yes. In regard to melee, the priorities of greatest urgency are: (1.) ground the enemy, and if they are unarmed (2.) manually dodge their grabbing attack. Ground kills their charge attack, and the manual dodge will grip break a successful grab. Once grounding is done, you will finish them with melee. You won't be able to get 25 tiles between you and the injured enemy to freely use arrows.


Oh, and about that Shield User thing you were talking about, are creatures able to wield a shield or strap one to their forearms if they are wielding a bow at the same time? I am not sure how to train Dodger and Shield User to Grandmaster or Legendary without getting into fights and that seems to be the only way which... is not bad, I suppose.
In game it is mechanically possible to fire a bow and use a shield. My characters avoid this as it's narratively jarring. YMMV.

Yes, dodger and shield-user train best and most consistently through melee. I wouldn't think about late game skill tiers. You only want to think about having enough dodger/shield user to manage the next combat you find yourself in.

If you want singularity of approach, as in you are shooty and never stabby, then you'll need to know the encounters for what they are and skip the situationally melee encounters. This means you can only run combats where your elf can guarantee themself 25 tile distance. It will be somewhat restrictive.
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2019, 09:24:56 pm »

In daylight all player characters can see 25 tiles. NPCs for some reason have been restricted to an active viewrange of 20.

So player elves/humans needn't worry.


I was primarily concerned about every race not having the full 25 tile viewrange the Dwarves seem to have received as a blessing that helps with stealth and prowling about during the night—y'know, the things you mentioned to me about what made Dwarves the more optimal choice for Archery.

Yes. In regard to melee, the priorities of greatest urgency are: (1.) ground the enemy, and if they are unarmed (2.) manually dodge their grabbing attack. Ground kills their charge attack, and the manual dodge will grip break a successful grab. Once grounding is done, you will finish them with melee. You won't be able to get 25 tiles between you and the injured enemy to freely use arrows.


Ah, okay, thanks for explaining that to me. Hm, I believe that means I should consider training whichever skill utilizes daggers since that is the only other weapon I have on my Adventurer at the moment, and I happen to like daggers anyway—unless there is another weapon type that is better for combat in Dwarf Fortress. Quite a few good things have been said about maces because they do not get stuck in their targets, I think.

In game it is mechanically possible to fire a bow and use a shield. My characters avoid this as it's narratively jarring. YMMV.

Yes, dodger and shield-user train best and most consistently through melee. I wouldn't think about late game skill tiers. You only want to think about having enough dodger/shield user to manage the next combat you find yourself in.

If you want singularity of approach, as in you are shooty and never stabby, then you'll need to know the encounters for what they are and skip the situationally melee encounters. This means you can only run combats where your elf can guarantee themself 25 tile distance. It will be somewhat restrictive.


Then I need to get my hands on a shield. ❦
Narratively jarring? Does shields cause more announcement spam? I enjoy verbose information, but hm... I am already having a little bit of trouble organizing all of it with Announcement Window+.

Oh, I do not mind melee skirmishes. Ranged combat is something I prefer across all games, but I am okay with getting up close and personal to bloody my hands if absolutely necessary. My apprehension is from having no interest in going for a full-blown melee build which I thought I may be funneled—or a Throwing build—into due to Archery potentially not being viable.

My Dodging and Shield User are at Adequate, so uhh... I hope that will help me avoid losing limbs for the less challenging or average battles. Good news is that I am a Legendary Archer/Bowman now! About training Dodging and Shield User, I heard something about other players using crabs to train those two skills because... they are weak or slow? I might try that out if I can find a shield and a beach with crabs.
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DG

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2019, 01:52:50 am »

Narratively jarring?

He means it doesn't make sense to him to be able to use a bow well while simultaneously holding a shield, so he avoids it.
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2019, 04:11:19 am »

He means it doesn't make sense to him to be able to use a bow well while simultaneously holding a shield, so he avoids it.

If the shield can be strapped to the forearm, I do not see why not.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2019, 06:57:28 am »

He means it doesn't make sense to him to be able to use a bow well while simultaneously holding a shield, so he avoids it.

If the shield can be strapped to the forearm, I do not see why not.
I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2019, 05:56:48 pm »

I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.

After visualizing in my head, it seems realistic to me—maybe not the swift reaction of firing an arrow back at the target after blocking since that takes time and focus similarly to trying to channel and cast a spell after blocking an attack if we want to base this on absolute realism.

The entity has a shield that is no larger than a kite shield strapped to their left forearm, and they are wielding their bow with their left hand which they use their right hand to pull an arrow from the quiver on their back to load and attempt shooting the bow whilst aiming the bow with their left hand.

What should probably happen is while they are aiming, their focus should be interrupted if they manage to block (or dodge) an attack since they have to readjust their forearm that has the hand being used to wield the bow to intercept the attack. Since this is a Fantasy-based game with attributes that can be improved, Focus could shorten the amount of time the entity needs to do calculations for the force and angles needed to hit their mark, Agility alongside Strength could improve the speed at which the entity draws the bowstring, Kinesthetic Sense (Proprioception or Kinesthesia) and Strength could have some effect on blocking and the poise of the entity blocking an attack alongside a minor positive effect towards Archery, and Spatial Sense would probably help with calculations in relation to Archery and more efficient ways to block attacks in conjunction with Kinesthetic Sense.

Of course, those attributes do not function that way in-game, so they are merely hypothetical proposals for making blocking with a shield whilst wielding a bow make sense for roleplay purposes. Agility, Focus, Kinesthetic Sense, and Spatial Sense have been listed to affect Archery/Bowman, but I am not knowledgeable to how it affects those two skills.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2019, 02:58:47 pm »

I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.

After visualizing in my head, it seems realistic to me—maybe not the swift reaction of firing an arrow back at the target after blocking since that takes time and focus similarly to trying to channel and cast a spell after blocking an attack if we want to base this on absolute realism.

The entity has a shield that is no larger than a kite shield strapped to their left forearm, and they are wielding their bow with their left hand which they use their right hand to pull an arrow from the quiver on their back to load and attempt shooting the bow whilst aiming the bow with their left hand.

What should probably happen is while they are aiming, their focus should be interrupted if they manage to block (or dodge) an attack since they have to readjust their forearm that has the hand being used to wield the bow to intercept the attack. Since this is a Fantasy-based game with attributes that can be improved, Focus could shorten the amount of time the entity needs to do calculations for the force and angles needed to hit their mark, Agility alongside Strength could improve the speed at which the entity draws the bowstring, Kinesthetic Sense (Proprioception or Kinesthesia) and Strength could have some effect on blocking and the poise of the entity blocking an attack alongside a minor positive effect towards Archery, and Spatial Sense would probably help with calculations in relation to Archery and more efficient ways to block attacks in conjunction with Kinesthetic Sense.

Of course, those attributes do not function that way in-game, so they are merely hypothetical proposals for making blocking with a shield whilst wielding a bow make sense for roleplay purposes. Agility, Focus, Kinesthetic Sense, and Spatial Sense have been listed to affect Archery/Bowman, but I am not knowledgeable to how it affects those two skills.

Quick note, an Entity in dwarf fortress refers to a collection of hist figs all working towards the same purpose and is a structure that represents that rather than an individual (a civilization is an entity and so is a bandit gang for example, and if you become a lord and hir ehearthpeople you will have created an entity, but an individual is not referred to as an entity in this game) so instead of entity the term that i would use is creature/critter. Sorry for my minor nitpic.  But im referring to what toady actually calls them in code. Creatures in dwarf fortress are actually represented as templated vectors rather than any kind of actual "entity" object. Which is why they can have multiple "soul" objects (which represent your attributes), but only one is marked as active at time)

About attack interruptions that exists currently in hand to hand combat if you actively grab the hand of someone in the process of swinging a sword at you the game says "The Attack is interrupted" i imagine it would work similarly for your bowman example if he does that. (and im not sure if that is already a thing as it may be, since firing bows does take more time in df then other things)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 03:08:43 pm by Untrustedlife »
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Fi

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2019, 06:32:24 pm »

Quick note, an Entity in dwarf fortress refers to a collection of hist figs all working towards the same purpose and is a structure that represents that rather than an individual (a civilization is an entity and so is a bandit gang for example, and if you become a lord and hir ehearthpeople you will have created an entity, but an individual is not referred to as an entity in this game) so instead of entity the term that i would use is creature/critter. Sorry for my minor nitpic.  But im referring to what toady actually calls them in code. Creatures in dwarf fortress are actually represented as templated vectors rather than any kind of actual "entity" object. Which is why they can have multiple "soul" objects (which represent your attributes), but only one is marked as active at time)

Neat, TIL, and you are fine.

I refer to anything of reference (player characters [Adventurers], NPCs [Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Kobolds, a wolf, or any other living creature], a building, an organization, a rock, and so on) as an "entity"—anything that exists as a separate being—across all subjects and games since the word means "existence" and "being" after all, so it is going to take some time for me to shift from my earthen English vocabulary to adjust to Dwarf Fortress's lingo for everything within its domain.

About attack interruptions that exists currently in hand to hand combat if you actively grab the hand of someone in the process of swinging a sword at you the game says "The Attack is interrupted" i imagine it would work similarly for your bowman example if he does that. (and im not sure if that is already a thing as it may be, since firing bows does take more time in df then other things)

Hm, interesting, I have yet to be interrupted, so I did not know that until now.

Can Archers be interrupted when they block an attack or when they are grabbed before they release an arrow from their bowstring? From what I have seen, it seems that they send their arrows flying almost immediately and what is being calculated in moments is the reload speed and possibly the travel time of the arrow soaring towards its target.

I have no idea how to check this, so I could be wrong.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2019, 07:00:14 pm »

Quick note, an Entity in dwarf fortress refers to a collection of hist figs all working towards the same purpose and is a structure that represents that rather than an individual (a civilization is an entity and so is a bandit gang for example, and if you become a lord and hir ehearthpeople you will have created an entity, but an individual is not referred to as an entity in this game) so instead of entity the term that i would use is creature/critter. Sorry for my minor nitpic.  But im referring to what toady actually calls them in code. Creatures in dwarf fortress are actually represented as templated vectors rather than any kind of actual "entity" object. Which is why they can have multiple "soul" objects (which represent your attributes), but only one is marked as active at time)

Neat, TIL, and you are fine.

I refer to anything of reference (player characters [Adventurers], NPCs [Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Kobolds, a wolf, or any other living creature], a building, an organization, a rock, and so on) as an "entity"—anything that exists as a separate being—across all subjects and games since the word means "existence" and "being" after all, so it is going to take some time for me to shift from my earthen English vocabulary to adjust to Dwarf Fortress's lingo for everything within its domain.

About attack interruptions that exists currently in hand to hand combat if you actively grab the hand of someone in the process of swinging a sword at you the game says "The Attack is interrupted" i imagine it would work similarly for your bowman example if he does that. (and im not sure if that is already a thing as it may be, since firing bows does take more time in df then other things)

Hm, interesting, I have yet to be interrupted, so I did not know that until now.

Can Archers be interrupted when they block an attack or when they are grabbed before they release an arrow from their bowstring? From what I have seen, it seems that they send their arrows flying almost immediately and what is being calculated in moments is the reload speed and possibly the travel time of the arrow soaring towards its target.

I have no idea how to check this, so I could be wrong.


You can test it by doing it to a bandit or something, if you have high observer it will say "x is swinging their sword at you" or "x is attacking you" etc when you hit the attack key. Also about entities, its all good. But now you will know what toady means when he says entity in a dev log or when someone says it here :) .
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