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Author Topic: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier  (Read 1794 times)

NordicNooob

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A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« on: January 02, 2020, 12:52:04 pm »

It's well known, and almost always accounted for, that your fortress will have less soldiers than whatever rabble of goblins is invading you. Most players counter this with exceptional training, steel gear, traps, and better players may even create choke points and divvy up the enemy into groups which their soldiers can take on without fear of dying from exhaustion.

But these great soldiers are still just run-of-the-mill dwarves. Sure, some players may go for more stress-resistant individuals and others will give them a half decade of training before they even get sent to battle wildlife, but it eventually comes down to sustainability. When everything goes to the crapper, can you rely on these basic troops to get you out of it? When everybody's depressed, how do you know that they won't be? What happens when one gets stuck in battle past your bridge that was supposed to split them up, or when you have to act quickly and fight in a bad spot or risk noncombatant deaths? The point is, even the most well trained soldiers are still dwarves behind their armor.

So I've decided to hypothesize the best soldier, and also give an accounting of a test run I did a while back. First, the basic details of our epic fighter need to be laid out. Most importantly, they should have no physical needs. Goblins don't need to eat or drink, and are immortal, but they do have an issue in that they still need to sleep, like everybody else. The obvious solution is a vampire, but what race, then? Elves and goblins have no particular combat advantage and their normal advantage (immortality) is already solved by vampirism. Dwarves... well, we all know that dwarf vampires still need booze to be effective, which leaves us with humans. Humans are a great choice for a warrior race because of their above average size, which helps in so many minor ways. So, we want a human vampire for our supersoldier.

Problem: vampires are prone to stress. Since they don't eat, sleep, or drink, they don't receive happy thoughts or fulfill needs from doing any of those things. There's a solution, though. They need a spouse. They must be married early in their lifetimes and have lots of children. Having children will create powerful happy thoughts that have a high chance of causing personality change for the better, and, supposing both of the parents are of good genes, those children might be able to go on to be supersoldiers themselves, supposing a spouse can be found. The husband/wife team should also be training during pregnancies: vampirism buffs physical stats based off the stats of the individual, so a stronger human will make for a stronger vampire, or so I guess. When the couple nears the end of their natural lifespan, they should be turned into vampires, and, if they aren't already, isolated from the common rabble of your fort for obvious reasons.

For their duties, they should have their own individual barracks and a small bedroom or tavern where the two may socialize with each other. Temples for them are optional, and not particularly necessary. Although religiousness seems to depend on world, fort births tend to not be very religious, and will thus only have one or two gods being casually worshiped, thus making the impact on their mood and focus minimal. Since a fort birthed couple is the easiest way to get two young humans of the same age that are married to each other, your supersoldiers likely won't have any strong religious affiliations. Once you have a pair of stress-immune vampire humans, you're pretty much set. Give them a month or so off every year to socialize and fulfill needs, but otherwise train them constantly.

My testing has shown a lesser form of this to be quite effective. In my test fort, I took a random buff human, turned them into a vampire (no spouse or children for stress purposes), gave them a sparring partner, executed the rest of the fort, trained them for twenty years, and then let the chosen one (armed in exclusively masterwork candy with a steel shield and candy sword) out to beat the tar out of a goblin invasion about 120 strong. The battle took place on the surface, an entirely open arena(the map had no tress or hills). My soldier took out about 80 before going down for a surprising reason: rage. Rage stops dodging, and dodging was the primary reason he wasn't being attacked 120 times for every time he attacked once. He still put up a good fight even when being attacked by the 60-odd goblins remaining at once, eventually getting taken out to a lucky (or perhaps inevitable) whip to the brain.

This seems to stress the importance of emotional training when designing a supersoldier. While the soldier had no real stress issues during his training (he quickly jumped to ecstatic from the sheer quantity of skill gain thoughts), he did bounce back and forth between being distracted from unmet needs and merely unfocused from them. In addition, anger propensity was basically the sole reason he died: he was not particularly prone to rage (having been only slightly above average, not even enough to lead to a noting of such in his profile), but the fact that he did eventually rage means that a soldier must have some trait dictating his/her calmness. Having supersoldiers exist in pairs is also likely a good idea, both due to sparring reasons and to account for unpredictability in combat. If one of the two somehow enrages, the other may still at least continue to draw attention away from them so that they can survive for the full time and continue fighting.

This is obviously a more long term thing, but when done correctly it should allow for two soldiers to be the only soldiers you'd ever need. If need-be, they should be able to fight indefinitely against basically any foe that is actually beatable in hand-to-hand combat. Large, stereotypical armies are still probably the best option for engaging the HFS hand-to-hand since fire and webs can lead to a lot of unstoppable deaths, but the vampire human duo is probably the best for every other situation.

If you still wish to rely off conventional forces in tandem with your supersoldiers, the breeding program and rejects will likely supply sufficient forces to create a medium sized elite force of humans. You could also just vampirify humans whenever you get a petitioner, and assemble an army in that way, as even with rage a large enough force (I'm thinking a full squad) should be nigh unbeatable in the way a normal well-trained army is. Still, compressing your army into a tiny amount of units is good for FPS, and also makes for more impressive battles when two soldiers hold off an army of thousands.
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Bumber

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2020, 01:32:12 pm »

You can have dwarf vampires if you use tavern staff. Not sure how much martial trances add onto the combat prowess you've already seen.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2020, 01:36:48 pm »

My perfect hypothetical soldier is...

An Elf. Perfectly groomed and chiselled for many hours upon pump stacks and climbing ranges, taught in the traditional dwarven style of younglings being thrown into dog pits for feats of endurance bearing many scars aided by their gracefulness. By their innate nature unlike goblins their personal flaws of vanity are relatively superficial and they are ever serving and obedient, having until the end of time to hone their skills with incorruptable immortality.

By the time the Elf comes of age it will have adopted dwarven skills, language and customs, beard outstretched and eyes trained to the darkness, the collective history of the wrongs of their former people had done to them memorized and emphasised, as they relish the opportunity to be nominated to the prestigious fortress guard they had been waiting under the eyes of their mentors for their entire life.

They deserve to be liberated from their communes and emancipated into fortress machines of death against other elves and worse.


Mechanically speaking, while not having innate brute strength or a motivating force like strange moods or the concentration of channelled anger, elves are incredibly graceful, have immaculate memories, perception and serve a great purpose of a indispensible militia unit rather than being stout and stubborn or a crazed beserker, my ideal build would be a elf with combined candy breastplate, iron helmet and armor + accessories and a candy sword + iron shield for landing precise and calculated hits upon foes to quickly incapacitate them or cut off limbs to disarm them.

Dodging and climbing for means of pursuit with the elven agility and ability to chase down enemies and strike them quickly are skills to capitalise upon at young age by means of the 'traditional' methods of dog pits. If it is a second generation member of the fortress, by the time they turn 12 (or whenever appropriate) to ascend into adulthood they should have matured into a great respect of craftdwarfship and justice and discarded the silly notions of nature as aquisition of entity customs happens at this point, no matter who or what race you are.

Vampires are a liability when you can have the real thing that doesn't suck blood.
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Bumber

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2020, 01:44:06 pm »

Vampires are a liability when you can have the real thing that doesn't suck blood.
Vampires don't need to breathe, though. They never get winded or tired in combat (although necromancy can protect anyone from the latter.)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 01:47:38 pm by Bumber »
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NordicNooob

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2020, 03:15:28 pm »

You can have dwarf vampires if you use tavern staff. Not sure how much martial trances add onto the combat prowess you've already seen.
Yes, but that's introducing a supply chain that causes some major problems. Martial trances are nice, but they aren't worth the logistical challenges of not only supplying tavern staff (and giving appropriate downtime regularly) but also actually supplying booze to a room full of vampires, which isn't easy to automate in itself. Plus, these soldiers are supposed to be able to fight in the most extreme circumstances, no matter what. Dwarves have cave adaptation, and because of their need for booze, they can't fight for absurd amount of times, like a few months, before they become ineffective.

My perfect hypothetical soldier is...

An Elf. Perfectly groomed and chiselled for many hours upon pump stacks and climbing ranges, taught in the traditional dwarven style of younglings being thrown into dog pits for feats of endurance bearing many scars aided by their gracefulness. By their innate nature unlike goblins their personal flaws of vanity are relatively superficial and they are ever serving and obedient, having until the end of time to hone their skills with incorruptable immortality.

By the time the Elf comes of age it will have adopted dwarven skills, language and customs, beard outstretched and eyes trained to the darkness, the collective history of the wrongs of their former people had done to them memorized and emphasised, as they relish the opportunity to be nominated to the prestigious fortress guard they had been waiting under the eyes of their mentors for their entire life.

They deserve to be liberated from their communes and emancipated into fortress machines of death against other elves and worse.


Mechanically speaking, while not having innate brute strength or a motivating force like strange moods or the concentration of channelled anger, elves are incredibly graceful, have immaculate memories, perception and serve a great purpose of a indispensible militia unit rather than being stout and stubborn or a crazed beserker, my ideal build would be a elf with combined candy breastplate, iron helmet and armor + accessories and a candy sword + iron shield for landing precise and calculated hits upon foes to quickly incapacitate them or cut off limbs to disarm them.

Dodging and climbing for means of pursuit with the elven agility and ability to chase down enemies and strike them quickly are skills to capitalise upon at young age by means of the 'traditional' methods of dog pits. If it is a second generation member of the fortress, by the time they turn 12 (or whenever appropriate) to ascend into adulthood they should have matured into a great respect of craftdwarfship and justice and discarded the silly notions of nature as aquisition of entity customs happens at this point, no matter who or what race you are.

Vampires are a liability when you can have the real thing that doesn't suck blood.
Elves could be practical supersoldiers in place of humans, but as noted, vampirism must stay to prevent exhaustion. Necromancy is much more dangerous than vampirism for a warrior, since the necromancers won't actually get rid of whatever's invading, just make it into a zombie that attacks everybody else. Most of what's going for them is that they are faster than humans, which might be more useful than the already plentiful combat prowess a human's bigger size gives, and have the side benefit of not needing special equipment.

However...
Elves are quite hard to breed due to their immortality, so getting the necessary married couple could be quite difficult. Elves can still go into rage, it's just less likely due to their personalities, and some adequately calm elves can't rage. I'm not sure, but I think it might also be that fort-births inherit dwarven ethics and personalities, so elf personalities v human personalities may be a completely null point either way. Even if it isn't though, elves do have an infinite lifespan with which to get a huge variety of anti-stress traits before turning them into vampires for the extra stats and lack of needs.

I'd still suggest humans.
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Sver

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2020, 05:55:25 am »

If the goal is to have a soldier who never rests at all, I'd say humans too. Size advantage is decently significant - and much, much more significant than maximum movement speed the elves excel at. That said, in a combat situation martial trances are a huge boon.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2020, 08:07:17 am »

- You're going to need a tavern keeper sooner or later anyway - when your supersoldier gets "doesn't care about anything anymore", they start needing alcohol just like dwarves.

 - Scratch the "train them constantly" - Vampires have NO_EXERT and NO_SLEEP, which means individual combat drills will leave them perpetually tired, unless you knock them out with a drowsiness syndrome (such as from evil weather or FB).

 - Besides, once they're Legendary+11 in their worst stat nothing in-game is going to beat their rolls anyway, martial trance or not. On the upside, this gives them plenty of time to admire buildings and pray - the religiousity of visitors may turn to your advantage here, as prayer is decent mood boost.


‣Unless you have a weapon large enough dwarf can't wield that you want to use - and artifact adamantine two-handed sword, given to a tall & wide human, might be worth consideration - I'd generally prefer an elf. The agility and kinesthetic sense advantages are nice, and an average elf has as good disease resistance as the best dwarf or human.


‣ Other gear might be worth consideration - a particular issue worth consideration is that if the soldier is supposed to slay everything, they're going to need a shield and crossbow to deal with beings composed of fire, which make substandard options for fighting armies in melee, and perhaps even worse ones for facing webbers on open ground - and they might do relatively poorly versus iron men and bronze colossi as well, based on fragfish's testing ("The results here can be pretty easily summed up: All iron weapons, as well as steel war hammers, have a 100% deflection rate. The Colossus won all those combats without a scratch."). Two arms isn't enough to fight off everything.


‣ As for armor, an artifact adamantine cloak over artifact steel breastplate seems to offer superior defensive values compared to adamantine breastplate, given that the first deflects or converts sharp things to blunt, and the second then is best armor for dealing with blunt attacks(barring slade breastplate, but who wants to wear that?).

Of course, can't make those for humans (though you can name human-sized gear in adventure mode). The loss of greater defensive values and wear resistance might be moot, given they're not supposed to get hit anyway, but this brings up using non-standard soldiers by using adventure mode:



• An angel would have most of the (dis)advantages of a vampire human, with the additional bonus to being immune to most syndromes if inorganic - however, they wouldn't drink blood of your citizens, and would start with lower stats: 10 in combat skills, using adv-mode recruiting. Brown Recluse Spider(wo)man would have both immunity to webs and ability to hold shield, crossbow, sharp weapon and blunt weapon at once, allowing them to fill any role that doesn't require blunt + large size. Leapard Seal Men or Giant Tortoise Man would have large non-meanderer sizes, with stats similar to human.

If you start an adventurer as one of those races instead of recruiting, you can get your pick of attributes, and maybe vampire orca man might be on the table, by toppling a statue player placed in underwater temple, though you won't be able to marry them off in that case.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 08:27:02 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Bumber

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2020, 10:59:39 am »

- Scratch the "train them constantly" - Vampires have NO_EXERT and NO_SLEEP, which means individual combat drills will leave them perpetually tired, unless you knock them out with a drowsiness syndrome (such as from evil weather or FB).
Tired in what way? Doesn't NOEXERT prevent all such effects?
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qualiyah

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2020, 02:27:21 pm »

I think you're mistaken about fortress births tending to be less religious. The dwarves I have who were the children of parents who worshipped 4 different gods devoutly seem to follow in their parents' annoying footsteps.

It's possible that less-religious dwarves are more likely to breed naturally, though, just because they'll have more time to spend socializing.
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NordicNooob

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2020, 08:59:47 pm »

Surprising, I can't say I've ever had any remarkably religious fort births. Most of my experience is either that it's a world kind of thing where dwarves are all just religious fanatics, or it's a case-by-case thing where the "popped into existence" run-of-the-mill migrants aren't very religious, but historical figures with actual history are quite the opposite. Since babies probably get their profiles made by the same function as migrants who pop into existence, I haven't had religious kids very often.

Then again, I haven't had fort births much in forts with high religious propensity, so I wouldn't be that surprised.

Also, gratz on the forums account qualiyah. Glad to see you've finally succumbed.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2020, 10:11:09 pm »

@Bumber: NOEXERT freezes tiredness at one value, so that neither combat nor just standing around changes it. However, individual drills still increase tiredness despite that - and because it is frozen, the vamp is perpetually tired from drills.

Magistrum

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2020, 10:36:09 pm »

Does anyone have a link for that thread about the most skilled psycopath ever? The dwarf with all the skills at legndary?
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Bumber

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2020, 10:04:58 am »

Does anyone have a link for that thread about the most skilled psycopath ever? The dwarf with all the skills at legndary?
This one?
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Magistrum

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Re: A Discourse on the Best Possible Soldier
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2020, 10:35:58 am »

That's the one! Morul is defintely on the higher end of dwarf contestants. I gotta ask Martin what he thinks would be the best soldier.
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