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[Naturegirl1999]

I think it’s a reasonably safe bet that plenty of other animals have some concept of other minds. The reason it hasn’t been observed conclusively is likely that no one has been able to find the right experiment to prove it. Or, rather, no one really agrees on what “proof” would be.

Agreed. It is unlikely that one species out of millions is the only one who understands that individuals have differing minds

[McTraveller]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

This is something that people have indeed tried to test, including in higher primates, and have so far been unable to conclusively demonstrate any evidence of theory of mind in other species.  There are suggestions it might be there, but nothing statistically significant apparently:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind#Non-human

[Starver]

A number of "stashing and caching" creatures will not only hide things because they don't want others (with other minds and knowledge) to know where a thing is, they will fake hiding things if they think they are being watched because they want the other creature to have a false alternate 'knowledge', letting them (effectively) sidle off to actually hide their prize elsewhere, untroubled by the watcher(s) who are now pointedly waiting for the fake hiding place to be pilferable, safely out of sight of the pilferee or other potential repilferers.


How much of this is 'intelligence' (and how much is rote/instinct that has arisen over billenia to be marginally advantageous over less sophisticated inherent behaviour) I couldn't say.

[Naturegirl1999]

A number of "stashing and caching" creatures will not only hide things because they don't want others (with other minds and knowledge) to know where a thing is, they will fake hiding things if they think they are being watched because they want the other creature to have a false alternate 'knowledge', letting them (effectively) sidle off to actually hide their prize elsewhere, untroubled by the watcher(s) who are now pointedly waiting for the fake hiding place to be pilferable, safely out of sight of the pilferee or other potential repilferers.


How much of this is 'intelligence' (and how much is rote/instinct that has arisen over billenia to be marginally advantageous over less sophisticated inherent behaviour) I couldn't say.

this was what I tried saying earlier, how could animals use fake stashes to trick other minds if it doesn’t know those minds exist?

[Starver]

I see I must have missed that one (that I've now read) while catching up.

Though it doesn't necessarily mean they 'know' what other minds think, it could just be an autonomous reflex behaviour prompted by various stimulii (witnessing the presence of potential rivals) without any mental projection or 'storytelling' or future projection.

Like something else that doesn't have a mind go speak of is still able to perform competent gamesmanship against a 'thinking' opponent.

Which might be what happens with us. I think I think therefore I am?

[Eschar]

Which might be what happens with us. I think I think therefore I am?

"Consciousness is a hallucination hallucinating a hallucination" - Douglas Hofstadter

[MrWiggles]

Naturegirl1999, have you boned up on what AI researchers think about this?

[Bumber]

Naturegirl1999, have you boned up on what AI researchers think about this?

Squirrels don't stash bones. That's dogs.

"Naturegirl1999, have you nutted up on what AI researchers think about this?"

There we go.

[Naturegirl1999]

Naturegirl1999, have you boned up on what AI researchers think about this?

Squirrels don't stash bones. That's dogs.

"Naturegirl1999, have you nutted up on what AI researchers think about this?"

There we go.

Naturegirl1999, have you boned up on what AI researchers think about this?

No. Where do you two think good starting po8nts would be?

[MrWiggles]

Naturegirl1999, have you boned up on what AI researchers think about this?

Squirrels don't stash bones. That's dogs.

"Naturegirl1999, have you nutted up on what AI researchers think about this?"

There we go.

Naturegirl1999, have you boned up on what AI researchers think about this?

No. Where do you two think good starting po8nts would be?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9-y-6csu5WGm29I7JiwpnA
Computerphile has lots of great vidoes about AI. Not just sapient AI though those too. It talks about various future problems which they may have.
Like the Stop Button Problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TYT1QfdfsM

One of the concerns you've stated that if we dont give them rights they wont respect us. There kinda of a solution to that. You'll find it in the above channel and there other articles talking about it. But the tl;dr is seed them with similar values.
A sapient AI will be a wholely alien creature with an unknowable inner workings.
And AI reseachers also consume media. So they're aware of stories with Skynet ect.
So the current solution, is to make AI systems value the same things we do. If they value what we value, then they have similar goals.

[Naturegirl1999]

Oh, I remember the Stop button problem video, and the one about reward hacking. Humans do reward hack9ng too

[McTraveller]

Apropos:

If you have not played or watched streams: Detroit: Become Human.  Holy crap.

I have been watching Mr Odd's playthrough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7vtlHyMwtc&list=PLj_Goi54wf0etCfYr04U-a3j-cQGztiEY

[Rolan7]

Every work by David Cage should be treated with a large dose of salt.  Detroit: Become Human is far too close to being a metaphor for race relations.

Though his work Fahrenheit was basically just The Matrix but with a bunch of... street people...
Actually yeah that works.  I can't fault David Cage for trying to raise awareness for those of us who don't have homes.

Apropos:
If AI ever do become human, which I don't necessarily believe in - how will we treat them?

It's useful because it makes us think about how we treat each other.

[MrRoboto75]

Every work by David Cage should be treated with a large dose of salt.  Detroit: Become Human is far too close to being a metaphor for race relations.

Though his work Fahrenheit was basically just The Matrix but with a bunch of... street people...
Actually yeah that works.  I can't fault David Cage for trying to raise awareness for those of us who don't have homes.

Apropos:
If AI ever do become human, which I don't necessarily believe in - how will we treat them?

It's useful because it makes us think about how we treat each other.

I'd say Detroit is like, the least bad David Cage game, and that's largly because the buddy cop film of Conner and Hank was mostly ad-lib and therefore had little Cage influence.  But yeah, Detroit is more about them being an underclass of slaves, complete with literal underground railroad to Canada, than about them being robutts.

[Rolan7]

Is that a fact?  I do love the Conner-Hank dialogue, but I'm skeptical about how much of it is ad-lib.  Because there are so many branches.  Maybe the natural route is ad-lib?