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Author Topic: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19: Lurking Omni-Flu Edition  (Read 423857 times)

Iduno

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5880 on: October 07, 2021, 08:20:17 pm »

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LordBaal

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5881 on: October 07, 2021, 09:31:37 pm »

On adults the malaria vaccine seems to work up to 77%
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feelotraveller

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5882 on: October 07, 2021, 09:42:37 pm »

But probably an untimely excess of caution that will generate significant harm when miscontrued in anti-vaxxer circles.  So fair enough with the wtf-ing.

I'd say the opposite, are you suggesting the government should disregard higher chances of ill side effects for a part of the populace, when they have the means to avoid this higher risk by simply redistributing vaccine use to not use that one vaccine at fault on this group?

If anything, this shows that the authorities is taking possible side effects from these new vaccines seriously and is willing to change their policy as new evidence presents itself, and that they don't want to repeat the mistakes of the swine flu vaccine. This is the kind of thing that builds trust in authorities.

No I am not suggesting disregarding whatever (yet to be published) evidence that study has found.  But it is early days, it needs to be reviewed, confirmed and compared to side effects from other vaccines.  While it is admirable for the government to take it seriously they should also pay attention to the optics of their announcements.  It could have simply been said that their advice has changed and now they were not recommending that particular vaccine for young people.  (The message sent to the medical community who adminster said vaccines could have carried a stronger message than the press announcement.)

What you seem to disregard is the damage to lives that will be caused worldwide by the anti-vaccination movement taking the official ban out of context.  Something they will continue to do even if the initial results do not pan out in further/wider studies.

I takee 40% less dead children any time of the week. Stirres, not shaken please.

It rises to 70% less dead children when combined with existing antimalarial drugs. A double shot is called for! [Edit: ninja have happened]
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5883 on: October 07, 2021, 10:18:28 pm »

Honestly I don't understand the purpose of this. To what end is the anti-vax madness? Selling alternatives? Just straight-up doomsday cult? I don't know.

To a very real extent, there isn't a purpose. When you've spend years afraid of "they", it doesn't take much of a push to get to a "they want you to have this, it must be bad" mindset. The right-wing anti-vax stuff is a straight line outcome from the "own the libs" mindset.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5884 on: October 07, 2021, 10:58:16 pm »

Although it is easy to blame Republicans for all of it, the anti-vax movement specifically started on the left (the new-age progressives) and has gotten a boost among the Right.

I'm not sure if the pseudo-left "green" anti-vaxxers can be substantially traced back before the false 1998 autism study (it's an interesting question), but I'm all but certain American far-right anti-vax has deeper roots in Christian extremism and anti-government right-libertarianism (which got more mainstream with reactions to Waco and 9/11, and brought anti-vax conspiracy theories along for the ride).
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delphonso

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5885 on: October 08, 2021, 12:00:56 am »

That is interesting. The desire to avoid any paper trail is certainly a Right-libertarian thing, and would include avoiding medical records. I would shift my statement to say that acceptance/wider spread acknowledgement is thanks to the pre-covid left.

scriver

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5886 on: October 08, 2021, 03:57:33 am »

But probably an untimely excess of caution that will generate significant harm when miscontrued in anti-vaxxer circles.  So fair enough with the wtf-ing.

I'd say the opposite, are you suggesting the government should disregard higher chances of ill side effects for a part of the populace, when they have the means to avoid this higher risk by simply redistributing vaccine use to not use that one vaccine at fault on this group?

If anything, this shows that the authorities is taking possible side effects from these new vaccines seriously and is willing to change their policy as new evidence presents itself, and that they don't want to repeat the mistakes of the swine flu vaccine. This is the kind of thing that builds trust in authorities.

No I am not suggesting disregarding whatever (yet to be published) evidence that study has found.  But it is early days, it needs to be reviewed, confirmed and compared to side effects from other vaccines.  While it is admirable for the government to take it seriously they should also pay attention to the optics of their announcements.  It could have simply been said that their advice has changed and now they were not recommending that particular vaccine for young people.  (The message sent to the medical community who adminster said vaccines could have carried a stronger message than the press announcement.)

What you seem to disregard is the damage to lives that will be caused worldwide by the anti-vaccination movement taking the official ban out of context.  Something they will continue to do even if the initial results do not pan out in further/wider studies.

Yes, that huge hypothetical damage "worldwide" versus the provable damage to this subset of Scandinavian people. Clearly the Swedish institution should be more occupied by what could happen then what would happen to the people they exist to care for. The Swedish Folk Health Agency exists to care for the health of the people of Sweden, not the whole world.

Shit, if you want to talk about hypothetical damage then nothing would be as damaging to Swedish vaccine sentiments as yet another scandal where the authorities didn't care about the consequences and pushed a vaccine with bad side-effects on the people. The swine flu vaccine scandal is already justification #1 for why people who doesn't want to get vaccinated here doesn't get vaccinated.

About the bolded part: literally all the Folk Health Agency does is advice the landthings.


Although it is easy to blame Republicans for all of it, the anti-vax movement specifically started on the left (the new-age progressives) and has gotten a boost among the Right.

I'm not sure if the pseudo-left "green" anti-vaxxers can be substantially traced back before the false 1998 autism study (it's an interesting question), but I'm all but certain American far-right anti-vax has deeper roots in Christian extremism and anti-government right-libertarianism (which got more mainstream with reactions to Waco and 9/11, and brought anti-vax conspiracy theories along for the ride).

This is pure falsehood. In Sweden, one of the biggest (I'd almost dare say only, apart from immigrated cultural sentiment and mistrust of government, but that would be a lie -- we've seen a rise of US exported ideas too over the last decades) is the Antrosophy movement, a bunch of left wing-ish (I'd call them liberals and bourgeois, but I think they would fall under what Americans would consider left-wing) crazies they're responsible for the only outbreaks of measles and rubella/red dog in Sweden in modern times. Antropisphism stems from the early 20th century, became a popular movement in the 70's and 80's (by way of hippies and proggers), and is outright anti-vaccine. Iircthe doctor who did the vaccine-causes-autism study originally was studying whether vaccines caused allergies, which is a claim straight from the antrosophist argument-book.

Now, I don't know how big that movement is in the US, but they are very connected to New Age ideas, which I know the US has more than enough of. There is a significant root to modern anti-vaccitude in those mostly "left-wing" circles. The current day "Facebook anti-vax" movement is pretty much a direct mirror of them back then. If you excuse me going into prejudice I'd suggest there's probably a significant overlap in the "target" denominations of the two.
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Starver

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5887 on: October 08, 2021, 05:40:32 am »

(I'd call them liberals and bourgeois, but I think they would fall under what Americans would consider left-wing)
A substantial proportion would consider Genghis Khan 'left-wing', of course...  :P
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martinuzz

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5888 on: October 08, 2021, 06:19:55 am »

We don't consider the anthroposofes left or right here. They're just a brand of crazy that can be found amongst the general population regardless of political / socio-economical beliefs.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5889 on: October 08, 2021, 01:15:41 pm »

I dont think scriver is wrong about that. You're as likely to find whacky nazis refusing vaccines as you're to find whacky hippies refusing vaccines. Likely with overlapping conspiracy theories. In Europe at least the antivax sector has traditionally been more about the latter.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 01:57:20 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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feelotraveller

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Son of the Mask edition
« Reply #5890 on: October 09, 2021, 12:20:58 am »

But probably an untimely excess of caution that will generate significant harm when miscontrued in anti-vaxxer circles.  So fair enough with the wtf-ing.

I'd say the opposite, are you suggesting the government should disregard higher chances of ill side effects for a part of the populace, when they have the means to avoid this higher risk by simply redistributing vaccine use to not use that one vaccine at fault on this group?

If anything, this shows that the authorities is taking possible side effects from these new vaccines seriously and is willing to change their policy as new evidence presents itself, and that they don't want to repeat the mistakes of the swine flu vaccine. This is the kind of thing that builds trust in authorities.

No I am not suggesting disregarding whatever (yet to be published) evidence that study has found.  But it is early days, it needs to be reviewed, confirmed and compared to side effects from other vaccines.  While it is admirable for the government to take it seriously they should also pay attention to the optics of their announcements.  It could have simply been said that their advice has changed and now they were not recommending that particular vaccine for young people.  (The message sent to the medical community who adminster said vaccines could have carried a stronger message than the press announcement.)

What you seem to disregard is the damage to lives that will be caused worldwide by the anti-vaccination movement taking the official ban out of context.  Something they will continue to do even if the initial results do not pan out in further/wider studies.

Yes, that huge hypothetical damage "worldwide" versus the provable damage to this subset of Scandinavian people. Clearly the Swedish institution should be more occupied by what could happen then what would happen to the people they exist to care for. The Swedish Folk Health Agency exists to care for the health of the people of Sweden, not the whole world.

Shit, if you want to talk about hypothetical damage then nothing would be as damaging to Swedish vaccine sentiments as yet another scandal where the authorities didn't care about the consequences and pushed a vaccine with bad side-effects on the people. The swine flu vaccine scandal is already justification #1 for why people who doesn't want to get vaccinated here doesn't get vaccinated.

About the bolded part: literally all the Folk Health Agency does is advice the landthings.


Arse about as always.  There is a hypothetical damage to a certain section of the Scandinavian population whereas there is a proven incidence of anti-vaxxers taking statements out of context and misintrepreting data. A number of them have already effectively killled themselves by refusing to be vaccinated and presumably taken a proportion of their listeners with them. Here's an example. No doubt there are better sources. But feel free to investigate any of the figures mentioned.  And I assure you there are many more.  As for the "proven damage" let's see that data because as far as I can tell it's not yet on the public record and is only considered, even by your own health agencies, as hypothetical and under investigation, at least for the moment.  (I mean has it even been peer-reviewed?)

Beyond that stop strawmanning, nobody is calling for them to push a vaccine with bad side effects on people, that's just your bad faith attempt to throw mud and hope that it sticks. The issue I raised isn't protecting the Swedish (and other Nordic) peoples health when being vaccinated - that is emminently reasonable and something I, along with your government and presumably everybody else here, agree with - it is taking care not to provide further fuel to the fire of the anti-vaccination movement.  That latter could have been avoided with a degree of awareness of the issues surrounding the covid pandemic, something your bodies should indeed be taking into account when releasing official public statements.  Or are you okay with someone shouting fire in a crowded cinema and damn the consequences?
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scriver

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Flu Season?? edition
« Reply #5891 on: October 09, 2021, 01:29:48 pm »

"Arse about as always" -- are you sure you wish to throw those stones in the glasshouse that is your general post history, Mr "we should totally give the Taliban a chance they say they're nice now"-man?

Let's look back at the facts here.
1. Swine Flu vaccine is found to cause narcolepsy in Nordic people, primarily Swedes and Finns, and primarily young people. There is a huge scandal over here with the government being made to pay damages to the victims. Despite the victims being very few, the fact that the authorities so heavily pushed the vaccine and disregarded all early reports of this side effect becomes the single biggest fuel for anti-vaccine sentiment here in the last decades, and the scandal is still one of the primary arguments people who don't get vaccinated here give of why they don't get vaccinated.
2. A study of the Nordic peoples shows a small but heightened risk for young people to have bad side effects of one of the vaccines -- and shut it with the "durr we don't know that until we see it ourselves" line of anti-intellectualism, I trust the educated professionals employed to look at research like this to better be able to evaluate it over random facebook researchers like you.
3. The authorities makes the call that since there is no lack of vaccines, the best strategy is for the landthings to cease distribution of this one vaccine to this group, and instead give them one of the other vaccines. The number of vaccinations in this strategy stay the same, and the only consequence is that the small chance of heart inflammation associated can be avoided for the group at risk of it.

Upon hearing this, you argue that it's wrong, and in your ignorance of the wider world suggest a course a better course of action. You are told that the better course of action is what happened, yet double down on how wrong it was without acknowledging this because, of course, that would show a modicum of self-awareness and you live by the code of the narcissist's litany. In actuality, this reveals that you never considered this to be a "better way" to begin with, you simply used it as an shallow rhetorical way to make the authorities seem even more wrong.

Then you start arguing about how the Swedish authorities committed to the health of the Swedish people should disregard this possible side effect, in the people they are in charge of caring for, for the sake of... The hypothetical effects this strategy of continued vaccination of people will have on the arguments some undefined concept of "world-wide" anti-vax people. I raise the more pertinent concerns of hypothetical effects failure to take another possible swine-flu situation in consideration will have on the Swedish anti-vax crowd -- the people much more relevant to the Swedish health agencies and the people they care and worry about spreading -- and you disregard that because... I'm not even sure; at this point it seems you're just an Americentric imperialist with his head up his arse who are unable to understand that the rest of the world doesn't exist for the benefit of you and that we have our own concerns and context of our own societies. You say "world-wide, but it's clear from your srnyimdnt and your examples what you actually mean is "American", probably because you lack the ability to emotionally and intellectually grasp the concept of the world beyond it as anything else than an extension of it. The Swedish authorities are concerned with the Swedish people. They should care about the Swedish people. They should not be concerned with whether their policies to avoid heart inflammation in young Swedes while continuing to vaccinate young Swedes might have on Americans. This shouldn't even need to be repeated, you not accepting that just goes to show how far up your own arse you've rammed that dunce cap of yours.

And then you repeatddly imply that the authorities should lie and deceive it's own populace, say one thing at press releases and then go behind the backs of media and the people and say another thing to the landthings. Again showing your lack knowledge about anything that isn't your own navel, because aside from that being morally and ethically despicable and an affront to the very concept and reason of being of authorities in open and democratic societies, this isn't how Sweden works. These things are public. When agencies such as the Folk Health Agency makes this kind of advice anyone can waltz into the landthing offices and ask to see the documentation. But since you're so concerned with the hypotethical staunching of anti-vax flames, do you understand that something that would really cause them to flare up in Sweden? If the FHM was caught lying to the public about possible health risks while telling the landthings another thing. Which would be immediately revealed, because you wouldn't even need whistle-blowers to tell the media they did, because every single media outlet routinely check up on these things by looking over the automatically public documentation.

As for your "shout fire in the theatre" rhetoric, that's also a flawed and inappropriate metaphor. This isn't some random theatre visitor causing panic in a crowded space. This is the professional agency in charge of preventing fire hazards, after having received reports of burns in a small but consistent group of the theatre audience and reviewing those, letting it be known that there is no fire; but the audience on the first three rows of seats where all the burn reports were from will be moved to another locale where they can continue to watch the play without risking burns. Don't go complaining about mudslinging and being strawmanned (for having your americentric views put in context, no less!) and then throw around trite and irrelevant stock phrases like that.

Sweden still has a high trust in both vaccination and the FMH. Such trust is imperative to combat both anti-vaxxers in general and covid-anti-vaxxers more specifically. You don't build that kind of confidence by lying to and deceiving your own populace. You don't build it by disregarding reports of vaccine side-effects, especially when the actions available to counter them are as easy as simple as a question of logistics where everyone still ends up vaccinated. You build it by being open and honest about what you are doing and why you are doing it. Your way of reasoning, feelotraveler, goes completely against your professed goals. Following your warped and alarmisg intuition would result in anti-vax sentiment growing, not decreasing.
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Stench Guzman

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Flu Season?? edition
« Reply #5892 on: October 09, 2021, 07:15:51 pm »

The vaccine is like Pringles.  Once you clot, you can't stop.
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Vector

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Flu Season?? edition
« Reply #5893 on: October 09, 2021, 08:22:02 pm »

:9
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wierd

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19:Flu Season?? edition
« Reply #5894 on: October 10, 2021, 01:29:42 am »

I will take the increased risk of DVT over having multiple organ damage, thanks.  At least the former is treatable with an anticoagulant regimen, like plavix, or warfarin.

The scenario that causes the clotting seems to be related to the use of modified adenovirus vector vaccines, and not the mRNA based vaccines anyway.
https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalreview.com/news/155536/breaking-news-researchers-may-know-the-cause-for-covid-19-vaccine-related-blood-clots/

So, unless you are shooting up on the non-mRNA based vaccines, it likely does not affect you anyway.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 02:20:01 am by wierd »
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