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Author Topic: So about the new sentient undead...  (Read 1315 times)

9joseph9

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So about the new sentient undead...
« on: February 04, 2020, 12:21:27 am »

I've currently got a mummy spending her time going from place to place resurrecting "coffin ghouls" like a mad woman. There must be hundreds of people now who have had their lives extended beyond their mortal span. I'm beginning to wonder if from a lore perspective it breaks the world abit to have resurrection be not only unrare, but in the case of Uja the mummy, being performed en masse.

An annyoing consequence of this is that when I go in legends mode, characters who have been resurrected appear with their undead title wether or not the event being described took place before or after they were brought back, meaning I have to constantly find exactly when they were brought back to know what state they were in at the time the event described took place.

Anybody else have some thoughts/experiences with these sentient undead in this new version they want to share?
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George_Chickens

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2020, 03:09:27 am »

My first dealing with the new undead was like being in a slasher film. I walked into an obliterated town trying to scavenge some loot (my world is a little post apocalyptic thanks to the necromancers), and saw one walking by. I didn't know what it was, so I left it alone, thinking it was non hostile. Then it turned. And it started creeping to me very, very slowly.

I ran from building to building trying to escape it, but it always knew where I was. Eventually, I was cornered and tried to fight it with my sword. A very bad idea. It knocked most of my teeth out, while I couldn't land a single hit. I managed to open a gap between us and BOLTED. It was slightly slower than I was, but never tired. Eventually, it began catching up and was slashing at my back, which I got multiple scars from.

I realized I couldn't escape it, so I jumped into a murky pool, hoping to delay it just enough for me to sneak off, or at least drown instead of become another body for necromancers. After what seemed like it circling the pool, waiting, it left, probably thinking I was dead. I never went back to that town.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2020, 03:11:58 am »

There is no lore.
Generating lore is what Mythgen is going to do.

Right now there are only features in a generic fantasy landscape. If new features aren't abundant is hard to test if they're working. Zombie apocalypses require some worlds to have abundant dead raising going on.

But yes, Legends mode is now a lot more annoying to read. Not an easy fix, but worth looking into now.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 03:13:49 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Untrustedlife

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2020, 11:15:02 am »

There is no lore.
Generating lore is what Mythgen is going to do.

Right now there are only features in a generic fantasy landscape. If new features aren't abundant is hard to test if they're working. Zombie apocalypses require some worlds to have abundant dead raising going on.

But yes, Legends mode is now a lot more annoying to read. Not an easy fix, but worth looking into now.
What, i think it's much more interesting now.

The history generation is your worlds lore right now. (Each world has its own lore and so the history in one is NOT canon in the other) And so if a mummy is raising coffin ghouls everywhere that is part of your worlds lore that there is a mummy running around making coffin ghouls.

Its not like its inconsistent with anything, the history generation  IS your worlds lore right now and generally lore means a fantastical version of history and so history gen is technically your worlds lore. Creation stories and such with myth gen aren't really lore, they are kinda like the d&d world creation thing. They are additional to your worlds lore.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/lore

Paul bunyan/King Arthur would for example be just a cool historical figures if our world was DF.(and they would be real because fantasy)

Anyway, my point is, there is no distinguishing your worlds history from lore. Because your worlds generated history is your lore. I think you will enjoy df much more when you think of it this way.

So for OP , your world is awesome, there is a scary mummy running around turning people into monstrous creepy undead ring wraithe things (and that is part of your lore, it doesnt "break your lore" at all since it is your lore, remember each df world is its own complete fantasy world with its own lore so what happens in one is NOT AT ALL canon in the other)) and that is awesome. And you should create an adventurer seek him out and take him out. You should also look at your worlds lore (legends mode), and see who originally disturbed it and brought fourth this evil and take them out if they are still around. And that will be an awesome story on its own.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 11:42:38 am by Untrustedlife »
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Untrustedlife

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2020, 11:17:13 am »

My first dealing with the new undead was like being in a slasher film. I walked into an obliterated town trying to scavenge some loot (my world is a little post apocalyptic thanks to the necromancers), and saw one walking by. I didn't know what it was, so I left it alone, thinking it was non hostile. Then it turned. And it started creeping to me very, very slowly.

I ran from building to building trying to escape it, but it always knew where I was. Eventually, I was cornered and tried to fight it with my sword. A very bad idea. It knocked most of my teeth out, while I couldn't land a single hit. I managed to open a gap between us and BOLTED. It was slightly slower than I was, but never tired. Eventually, it began catching up and was slashing at my back, which I got multiple scars from.

I realized I couldn't escape it, so I jumped into a murky pool, hoping to delay it just enough for me to sneak off, or at least drown instead of become another body for necromancers. After what seemed like it circling the pool, waiting, it left, probably thinking I was dead. I never went back to that town.

Thats AWESOME.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2020, 11:48:04 am »

I agree that retroactively changing the titles of creatures based on their active interactions can cause confusion though. But i also dont think thats "breaking" anything or any lore, since it is your worlds lore. But it can make browsing legends odd. Not sure how tarn can fix that in a satisfying way though.


Also they are called "Intelligent Undead".
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 11:49:42 am by Untrustedlife »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2020, 12:04:17 pm »

I agree that retroactively changing the titles of creatures based on their active interactions can cause confusion though. But i also dont think thats "breaking" anything or any lore, since it is your worlds lore. But it can make browsing legends odd. Not sure how tarn can fix that in a satisfying way though.


Also they are called "Intelligent Undead".
Fixing reports of creatures later transformed is comparatively easy: Add a vector to the hist fig where all relevant transformations are kept (or just let the vector contain references to those records). When reporting on the figure, each report would check the date of the event against the transformation vector.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2020, 12:09:51 pm »

I agree that retroactively changing the titles of creatures based on their active interactions can cause confusion though. But i also dont think thats "breaking" anything or any lore, since it is your worlds lore. But it can make browsing legends odd. Not sure how tarn can fix that in a satisfying way though.


Also they are called "Intelligent Undead".
Fixing reports of creatures later transformed is comparatively easy: Add a vector to the hist fig where all relevant transformations are kept (or just let the vector contain references to those records). When reporting on the figure, each report would check the date of the event against the transformation vector.

That would work. I didnt think of that. (I also develop games in c++ and so im surprised i didnt think of that :) )
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 12:12:10 pm by Untrustedlife »
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therahedwig

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2020, 12:10:38 pm »

Or make the transformed version an identity of the histfig that is registered in these cases.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 12:14:55 pm »

Or make the transformed version an identity of the histfig that is registered in these cases.
Hm, you'd probably have to store both physical transformation events and identity assumption events to record things properly:
- In the winter of 1034 Snang Gobbohead stole the artifact sock Gruk from the fortress of Rockhead while visiting under the false identity of Urist McHarmless.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2020, 08:52:52 am »

There is no lore.
Generating lore is what Mythgen is going to do.

Right now there are only features in a generic fantasy landscape. If new features aren't abundant is hard to test if they're working. Zombie apocalypses require some worlds to have abundant dead raising going on.

But yes, Legends mode is now a lot more annoying to read. Not an easy fix, but worth looking into now.
What, i think it's much more interesting now.
Yes, it's tremendously interesting now.
I meant that an abundance of undead isn't "against the lore" because DF worlds don't have an established lore, it's whatever it is at the moment.

Until Mythgen, which aims to establish lore (but uniquely for every single world generated, so it'll still be vastly interesting).
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Untrustedlife

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Re: So about the new sentient undead...
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 11:46:11 am »

There is no lore.
Generating lore is what Mythgen is going to do.

Right now there are only features in a generic fantasy landscape. If new features aren't abundant is hard to test if they're working. Zombie apocalypses require some worlds to have abundant dead raising going on.

But yes, Legends mode is now a lot more annoying to read. Not an easy fix, but worth looking into now.
What, i think it's much more interesting now.
Yes, it's tremendously interesting now.
I meant that an abundance of undead isn't "against the lore" because DF worlds don't have an established lore, it's whatever it is at the moment.

Until Mythgen, which aims to establish lore (but uniquely for every single world generated, so it'll still be vastly interesting).

I still think that saying mythgen is the only lore is an oversimplification. The history of your world is its established lore right now. But thats pedantic i guess. The lore would be the combo of history and mythgen. Hence each df world has its own lore. Creations tories aren't the only lore. Then right now it's fair to say your worlds history is its lore.But eh.

EG, taking LOTR as an example, the war of the ring was what happened in the LOTR movies/books, to anyone who lives after the war of the ring the war of the ring IS in fact lore. In df this means history gen equates to lore.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 11:52:17 am by Untrustedlife »
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I am an indie game developer!
My Roguelike on Itch.io with randomly generated creatures!
Roguelegends: Dark Realms
Check out the open source simulation game I am also developing!
Thrive
My website untrustedlife.com