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[vjek]

Doesn't look like anything is too difficult, locusLoC, but two questions:
When you say 'lots' of space before the first cavern layer, do you want 10 or 100, or some other specific minimum amount?
Would a small amount of partial light aquifer be ok, or 100% none is the requirement?

[locustgate]

I'm not sure if this is the right place. I've been trying to make a medium map that is large landmass surrounded by 3 sided oceans. But I keep getting ones that have multiple inland oceans and 3 oceans surrounding it and most of the oceans are savage. 

[lucusLoC]

I would say between 10 and 20 would be good for my designs (I have my world gen at 10, but that is just the minimum). A light aquifer would be acceptable if all else was perfect. Worst case is I get tired of dealing with it and hack in obsidian walls to get through. My biggest gripe with them is they get in the way of building, but they can be useful for certain projects.

[dikbutdagrate]

You're not playing on a real map unless this is first thing you see on an ocean deployment:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And upon unpausing the game, this happens:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Needless to say, all of the dwarves melted in seconds. And I can't remember whether the wagon burst into flames or not.

[TheFlame52]

Your images are broken again. Imagetitan is probably not a very good image hosting site.

[dikbutdagrate]

It's awful, but I'm at a loss as to how other people get around the http only non-sense.

[TheFlame52]

I use Imgur. If you want, you don't even need to make an account. Just go to the home page and paste your image, and it will automatically host your image and give you several options.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Use this one and then simply paste the link into the forum post.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's considered polite to put large images in spoiler tags. You can also check if your images work by using the "preview" button next to the post button.

[callisto8413]

I was wondering how close I can get to the Dark Suns setting?  In other words metal poor with a world that is mostly, but not totally, desert?

[vjek]

I was wondering how close I can get to the Dark Suns setting?  In other words metal poor with a world that is mostly, but not totally, desert?

From what I've seen..
If you set your rain value to 0-9, you'll only get deserts, badlands, or rocky wastelands.
If you have any rain in the world of 10 or higher, you'll get all those grasslands -> forest type biomes.
You can use the variance, mesh, and weighted range to affect what values within your rain range are used.  A quick example would be if you set your Rain range 0-12, and then changed your mesh to 2x2 (in a 17x17 world) and your weighted ranges to 99,none,none,none,1 you would get very few 10-12 rain values used.  However, if that were changed to 9,none,none,none,1 you would get more 10-12 rain values used.
As far as metal poor, you can set mineral scarcity to 100000 and you'll get less metals.

Examples:
One world tile of grassland (10+ Rain):

Spoiler: Rain1 (click to show/hide)

worldgen

Code: [Select]

Created in DF v0.47.05.

[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:RAIN1]
[SEED:kcogEGmcSu8o2Q2giIes]
[HISTORY_SEED:quK4uQKuMeOyiCMYs62Q]
[NAME_SEED:YukCaOmsAUECi4gUMo6a]
[CREATURE_SEED:uMqw20IC2Icm6eQUsCsG]
[DIM:17:17]
[EMBARK_POINTS:0]
[END_YEAR:200]
[BEAST_END_YEAR:200:-1]
[REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:0]
[CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:1]
[ELEVATION:100:300:400:400]
[RAINFALL:0:12:20:20]
[TEMPERATURE:75:75:0:0]
[DRAINAGE:0:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM:0:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY:0:0:0:0]
[ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[RAIN_FREQUENCY:2:99:0:0:0:1]
[DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[POLE:NONE]
[MINERAL_SCARCITY:100000]
[MEGABEAST_CAP:0]
[SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:0]
[TITAN_NUMBER:0]
[TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:0:0:0]
[DEMON_NUMBER:0]
[NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:0]
[BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:0]
[NIGHTMARE_NUMBER:0]
[VAMPIRE_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_ATTACK_TRIGGER:0:0:0]
[SECRET_NUMBER:0]
[REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:0]
[DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:0]
[EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:0]
[EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:0]
[GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:0]
[ALLOW_DIVINATION:0]
[ALLOW_DEMONIC_EXPERIMENTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_EXPERIMENTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_LIEUTENANTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_GHOULS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_SUMMONS:0]
[GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
[EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
[PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:0]
[PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[VOLCANO_MIN:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
[EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:1000]
[RIVER_MINS:0:0]
[PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:0]
[OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:0]
[SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
[CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:1]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:25]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:25]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:8]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:8]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
[LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
[CAVE_MIN_SIZE:1]
[CAVE_MAX_SIZE:1]
[MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
[NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
[ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
[SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
[TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:1]
[TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:0]
[SITE_CAP:0]
[PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
[ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
[RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
[DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]


Several world tiles of grassland (10+ Rain):

Spoiler: Rain2 (click to show/hide)

worldgen

Code: [Select]

Created in DF v0.47.05.

[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:RAIN2]
[SEED:yEcppNbxtZ4ykxisMjRP]
[HISTORY_SEED:lpzwvry5OzdiQ4vD6UjS]
[NAME_SEED:QinGnmkKLi7JmVT0RMgb]
[CREATURE_SEED:kk7kK23MEia1KJ2tdWAe]
[DIM:17:17]
[EMBARK_POINTS:0]
[END_YEAR:200]
[BEAST_END_YEAR:200:-1]
[REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:0]
[CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:1]
[ELEVATION:100:300:400:400]
[RAINFALL:0:12:20:20]
[TEMPERATURE:75:75:0:0]
[DRAINAGE:0:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM:0:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY:0:0:0:0]
[ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[RAIN_FREQUENCY:2:9:0:0:0:1]
[DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[POLE:NONE]
[MINERAL_SCARCITY:100000]
[MEGABEAST_CAP:0]
[SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:0]
[TITAN_NUMBER:0]
[TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:0:0:0]
[DEMON_NUMBER:0]
[NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:0]
[BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:0]
[NIGHTMARE_NUMBER:0]
[VAMPIRE_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_ATTACK_TRIGGER:0:0:0]
[SECRET_NUMBER:0]
[REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:0]
[DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:0]
[EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:0]
[EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:0]
[GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:0]
[ALLOW_DIVINATION:0]
[ALLOW_DEMONIC_EXPERIMENTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_EXPERIMENTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_LIEUTENANTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_GHOULS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_SUMMONS:0]
[GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
[EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
[PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:0]
[PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[VOLCANO_MIN:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
[EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:1000]
[RIVER_MINS:0:0]
[PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:0]
[OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:0]
[SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
[CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:1]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:25]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:25]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:8]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:8]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
[LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
[CAVE_MIN_SIZE:1]
[CAVE_MAX_SIZE:1]
[MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
[NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
[ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
[SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
[TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:1]
[TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:0]
[SITE_CAP:0]
[PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
[ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
[RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
[DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]


While the rest is desert, setting aside lakes.
Aside from the seeds, the only thing different in those two worldgens above is the Rain Weighted Range (0-20) changing from 99 to 9.
You can remove the seeds yourself and generate many worlds with those two parameter sets, and generally, the above appears to be true.  Generally. 

[vjek]

I would say between 10 and 20 would be good for my designs (I have my world gen at 10, but that is just the minimum). A light aquifer would be acceptable if all else was perfect. Worst case is I get tired of dealing with it and hack in obsidian walls to get through. My biggest gripe with them is they get in the way of building, but they can be useful for certain projects.

Technically, I think this matches except for one thing: It's not entirely flat.
Take a look and see what you think..

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

worldgen

Code: [Select]

Created in DF v0.47.05.

[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:LOCUS1C]
[SEED:Wc6kkAQmcOscQqCmS0mM]
[HISTORY_SEED:8i0WEYOSMWiOk4KsMeIy]
[NAME_SEED:qG6gewaE2eOKo8AEGguO]
[CREATURE_SEED:EoQAIKc4A4664uaAC6q2]
[DIM:17:17]
[EMBARK_POINTS:0]
[END_YEAR:200]
[BEAST_END_YEAR:200:-1]
[REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:0]
[CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:1]
[ELEVATION:100:300:0:0]
[RAINFALL:49:100:1600:1600]
[TEMPERATURE:75:75:0:0]
[DRAINAGE:0:100:3200:3200]
[VOLCANISM:0:100:1600:1600]
[SAVAGERY:0:100:0:0]
[ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[POLE:NONE]
[MINERAL_SCARCITY:100]
[MEGABEAST_CAP:0]
[SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:0]
[TITAN_NUMBER:0]
[TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:0:0:0]
[DEMON_NUMBER:2]
[NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:0]
[BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:0]
[NIGHTMARE_NUMBER:0]
[VAMPIRE_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_NUMBER:0]
[WEREBEAST_ATTACK_TRIGGER:0:0:0]
[SECRET_NUMBER:0]
[REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:0]
[DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:0]
[EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:0]
[EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:0]
[GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:0]
[ALLOW_DIVINATION:0]
[ALLOW_DEMONIC_EXPERIMENTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_EXPERIMENTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_LIEUTENANTS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_GHOULS:0]
[ALLOW_NECROMANCER_SUMMONS:0]
[GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
[EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
[PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:0]
[PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[VOLCANO_MIN:20]
[REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
[EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:1000]
[RIVER_MINS:0:0]
[PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:0]
[OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:0]
[SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
[CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:1]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:25]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:25]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:12]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:20]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
[LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
[CAVE_MIN_SIZE:1]
[CAVE_MAX_SIZE:1]
[MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
[NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
[ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
[SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
[TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:15]
[TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:8000]
[SITE_CAP:0]
[PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
[ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
[RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
[DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:108:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:108:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:300:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:300:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_EL:100:108:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:108:100]
[PS_EL:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:0:0:0:0:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:0:0:0:0:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:0:0:0:0:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:0:0:0:0:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:0:0:0:0:0:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
[PS_SV:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
embark

stonesense

[PatrikLundell]

Unfortunately, callisto8413 only copied the summary from the original post http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179445.0, and thus failed to mention the desire for elves, which require forests.

[callisto8413]

Thank you folks.  That helps alot.

[dikbutdagrate]

Its a little cold:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Immortal-D]

Hey all.  Is there a way to decrease the number of layers between surface and cavern 1?  When embarking at a coastline (ocean), I am always finding upwards of 100z before reaching the top of the cavern.  The elevation at worldgen is 0-3, nothing abnormal.  I have 'levels above layer 1' set to 5.  Also I'm focused on the tropical band, wherever that may occur.  Does beachfront property always have such extreme depth as a matter of course?

[vjek]

Hey all.  Is there a way to decrease the number of layers between surface and cavern 1?  When embarking at a coastline (ocean), I am always finding upwards of 100z before reaching the top of the cavern. ...

The cause here is the ocean.  If your global ocean depth is 1, then your world will be very thick, and you'll see the problem you're describing.
If you set your ocean depth/minimum elevation to 90, instead of 1, for example, you'll see a much 'thinner' world.  I haven't seen any issues with a 5-10 depth ocean, but YMMV.
If you have no ocean at all (all global elevations 100+) then the elevation value in advanced worldgen will be respected/adhered to ~exactly, in my experience.  That means, for example, if you set that value to 8, you'll have 8 Z-Levels from either the bottom of the soil or the embark level to the top of the caverns.
Also, non-flat embarks will shift this value slightly.  If the entire embark, edge to edge, is flat, then it should be closer/more consistent to what you set it.

Related/reference threads which either explain this in more detail, or have example 'thin' world/embarks:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175538.msg8160351#msg8160351
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175538.msg8233066#msg8233066
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175538.msg8302993#msg8302993
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175538.msg8212464#msg8212464
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175538.msg8173444#msg8173444