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Author Topic: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal  (Read 4464 times)

JesterHell696

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Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« on: February 19, 2020, 07:39:13 am »
So I wasn't sure where to put this but since I was going though my world.dat to extract the procedural critters and interactions and doing that is a modding thing I'll post it here, so I was going though my world.dat to extract all 20 secrets and 20 disturbances, looking though the secrets and boy can I say not all secrets are created equal.

Specifically secrets 9, 13 and 16 are of note,

Secret 9 can summon nightmares and 9's lieutenant's can rot your nerves, literally.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Secret 13 can't do much but raise lieutenant's, no summons, no ghouls, also 13's lieutenant's can cause blisters, the horror.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Secret 16 however is special, the necromancer can summon both nightmares and bogeymen and 16's lieutenant's has four powers, vanish, sicken, dizzy and pain, a wide selection of powers to be sure.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just thought it was interesting just how large the powers gap between secrets can be and wanted to share and figured it fit here better then fort or adv mode forums because world.dat .
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Eric Blank

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2020, 07:42:53 pm »
That hide interaction in secret 16 must be where the invisible unkillable lieutenants bug is coming from. I wandered into a tower and got tossed around and tormented by them for half an hour, never once did I catch a glimpse of my attackers, and they couldn't kill me thanks to my bronze armor. I guess hiding for the moment is way OP instead of totally useless and annoying (targets would immediately be spotted again next tick, complete with an annoying pop-up announcement about spotting an ambush). Hopefully when it's fixed again it's somewhere in-between, like guaranteed hiding for a small time period from anyone with less than x situation_awareness

I've been updating Spellcrafts and gave my necromancers lieutenants a generic force/push power, nothing else, and gave necromancers themselves a summon undead spell (undead for which I have yet to define. But these other interactions are interesting examples too.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 10:03:18 pm »
Quote from: Eric Blank on February 19, 2020, 07:42:53 pm
That hide interaction in secret 16 must be where the invisible unkillable lieutenants bug is coming from. I wandered into a tower and got tossed around and tormented by them for half an hour, never once did I catch a glimpse of my attackers, and they couldn't kill me thanks to my bronze armor. I guess hiding for the moment is way OP instead of totally useless and annoying (targets would immediately be spotted again next tick, complete with an annoying pop-up announcement about spotting an ambush). Hopefully when it's fixed again it's somewhere in-between, like guaranteed hiding for a small time period from anyone with less than x situation_awareness

I've been updating Spellcrafts and gave my necromancers lieutenants a generic force/push power, nothing else, and gave necromancers themselves a summon undead spell (undead for which I have yet to define. But these other interactions are interesting examples too.

Is it a bug or a feature like irremovable mummy curses? I mean depending upon pro-gen you could get a rot interaction that effects the brain, I had another variant that effected the pancreas so a brain rot interaction would also be OP but I wouldn't call that a bug, would you?  ???

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I personally would prefer more finite control over a simple fix towards an enforced balance of temporary hiding, something like a [HIDE:percentage hidden:time hidden:hide degrade] value within the interaction that sets how hidden they are, how long they're hidden and how fast their hides status degrades, then if people still want true invisibility for modding it can still work and the pro-gen (hopefully rarely) could make a useless [HIDE:1:1:1] or OP [HIDE:100:100:0] variants.

OP things shouldn't be banned or blocked from pro-gen possibility just because they're OP, like a steel forgotten beasts they should be admired for the !!FUN!! they create.  ;D

But I also want to be able to set the velocity of Ice Bolts or reverse the polarity of Force Push to get a Force Pull, hell make it so I can push/pull just a single BP and I could pull peoples hearts right out of their chests from across the room, Kali Ma Kali Ma.  :D
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Taras

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2020, 11:06:10 pm »
Good! I want more secrets for make my own necromancer mod.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2020, 04:49:34 am »
Quote from: Taras on February 19, 2020, 11:06:10 pm
Good! I want more secrets for make my own necromancer mod.

Well here's another friend, Secret 20 has Ghouls and 20's lieutenant's can raise a fog.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I didn't find any Necromancers with it but I found a few Mummies with paralyse, here is Disturbance 3 which has lieutenant's that can paralyse people.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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TheFlame52

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 04:25:13 pm »
This is pretty fascinating. So only some necromancers can make ghouls? Are there tags controlling whether they can create other kinds of experiments?
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JesterHell696

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2020, 06:46:44 am »
Quote from: TheFlame52 on February 21, 2020, 04:25:13 pm
This is pretty fascinating. So only some necromancers can make ghouls? Are there tags controlling whether they can create other kinds of experiments?

There was nothing about experiments in my original 20 secrets so I gen'd some more in a new world and found NIGHT_CREATURE_EXPERIMENTER in some secrets as a [CE_ADD_TAG:] tag.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Taras

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 02:46:12 am »
If I add to secret two or more spheres, will chance bigger or smaller? Spheres of secrets using and-logic or or-logic?
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JesterHell696

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2020, 12:16:44 am »
Quote from: Taras on February 24, 2020, 02:46:12 am
If I add to secret two or more spheres, will chance bigger or smaller? Spheres of secrets using and-logic or or-logic?

I don't know, would have to test it by having a world with two secrets one with only one sphere and the other with multiple then genning lot of world and comparing results, maybe check in one of the specific modding advice threads and ask their, maybe someone has already tested it for their own mod?
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

TheFlame52

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2020, 04:40:38 pm »
More spheres = more gods that can give a secret = more secrets given out.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2020, 07:51:12 am »
ok so necromancers legit have the token that tags them as night creatures, given night creature experimenter seem to apply that to the unit.
though I guess if you apply a secret to every goal/dream a unit could get maybe that would end up with more folks doing experiments or at least gods of different spheres handing out slabs to folks.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2020, 07:17:04 am »
Quote from: TheFlame52 on February 25, 2020, 04:40:38 pm
More spheres = more gods that can give a secret = more secrets given out.

So if I understand this it means that if a secret has [SPHERE:DEATH] and [SPHERE:NIGHTMARES] then a God only needs either [SPHERE:DEATH] or [SPHERE:NIGHTMARES] to gift it not both?
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

TheFlame52

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2020, 11:49:05 am »
I've checked out nightmare gods and they don't know any secrets, so it might just be the first tag? I'm not sure. Might be worth some science.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2020, 01:01:54 pm »
I've found that the most reliable way of getting loads of secrets is to not apply a SPHERE token at all.  It seems that no SPHERE is functionally equivalent to any sphere and any god can give it.
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TheFlame52

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Re: Not All Secrets are Generated Equal
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2020, 01:05:55 pm »
Quote from: IndigoFenix on March 01, 2020, 01:01:54 pm
I've found that the most reliable way of getting loads of secrets is to not apply a SPHERE token at all.  It seems that no SPHERE is functionally equivalent to any sphere and any god can give it.
Now that's news to me. Fascinating.
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