Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[IndigoFenix]

I've been trying to figure out why historical figures do the things they do, the better to mod their behaviors through secrets (that modify personalities) or base creature personality traits.

I haven't done much exploring yet, but I did write a DFHack script for scanning the brain of historical figures in Legends Mode.  Feel free to run it and see if you can find any patterns!  Unfortunately it seems DFHack has not been updated for the new version yet (I think?), so villain behaviors are still a no-go.  It should work once we get an update though, and for now it's possible to use in previous DF versions.

Here is the script.

EDIT: Updated the script to allow getting the average of all units in the world that meet particular criteria.  Results seem disappointing, so far vampires, werebeasts, and necromancers all seem to happen randomly, with no impact from the unit's personality.

EDIT2: Updated to take even more variables, and to also check average ethical values, but to no avail; as far as statistics suggest forming relationships of any kind or writing books are entirely random; when scanning all units with these criteria no personality trait or value is more than a fraction of a percent away from average.  Books do suggest some of the author's personality traits, but I think we could have already guessed that.  Maybe the villain update has more in-depth behavior, the fact that generated necromancy secrets alter their holder's personality suggests that personality does something, at least.

EDIT3: Added scanning for entity positions and war leaders, still nothing.  On the whole, this has been a very disappointing project, it appears that personality and values are basically cosmetic, as far as historical figures doing things in worldgen is concerned, unless things were changed substantially for the villain update, but that will have to wait until DFHack has been updated to test properly.

EDIT4: Tested it out with the alpha DFHack build.  It still seems like personalities and values don't have a significant effect on worldgen events, at least not in ways that can be viewed by looking for average trends.  I guess the script could still be nice for storytelling purposes though, since you can use it to find out things about legendary figures that aren't directly apparent from the legends screen.

[Dwarf_Fever]

I've been trying to figure out why historical figures do the things they do, the better to mod their behaviors through secrets (that modify personalities) or base creature personality traits.

I'm ok with worldgen events not being at the whims of the leaders, though in either case it would be nice to have some political depth to it.

Incidentally, if you're just taking a census, how would you relate that to the events, or why would you expect leaders to be noticeably different from their species, outside of maybe the results of a tendency for inbreeding?

[IndigoFenix]

I've been trying to figure out why historical figures do the things they do, the better to mod their behaviors through secrets (that modify personalities) or base creature personality traits.

I'm ok with worldgen events not being at the whims of the leaders, though in either case it would be nice to have some political depth to it.

Incidentally, if you're just taking a census, how would you relate that to the events, or why would you expect leaders to be noticeably different from their species, outside of maybe the results of a tendency for inbreeding?

Species personality variations only impact the average - the actual distribution is highly variable so each creature is unique.  You'll find units with 100 or 0 of each trait (apart from goblins, who have some traits locked above or below 50) but if you average them all out, you'll arrive at the species average.  (This is how I tested the averaging script; if you scan all -race DWARF or -race ELF the average value is very close to the species average as defined in the raws.)  Genetics does not appear to play a role in personality, since if it did you'd wind up with skewed values when averaging out all units in a given world, but as it is the values are all close to neutral.

The reason I would expect to find trends is because I would expect that some personality traits would be responsible for units making particular choices.  For example, I expected to find above-average AMBITION among position holders, because I expected that units with higher ambition would be more likely to create plots that would put them in power, especially with the villain update.  Similarly I would expect to find above-average BRAVERY or VIOLENT values among those who lead battles, or PRIDE and VANITY among those who become obsessed with immortality and therefore become necromancers.

It seems that worldgen basically chooses these units at random, and then sometimes uses their personalities to retroactively invent a reason for them doing the things they do to spice up the flavor text.  Unless there's a test I haven't thought of yet.

Toady has said that personality traits and values figure into villain behavior, which is why I wanted to modify personalities in the first place, but with no explanation of which traits cause which behaviors the only way to check scientifically is to look for average trends among units who perpetrate certain deeds, and so far I have found no such trends.

To be fair I've been searching for the results of villainous plots, not the number of attempts.  It's possible that villains with high AMBITION (or some other traits) regularly scheme to put themselves into power, but so few succeed that any trends are lost in the noise.  It is possible that skills may impact the success of these plots, but the problem with scanning for skills is that it's a chicken-and-egg problem.  Units with positions do have above-average social skills, but I can't tell if they reached their positions due to their skills or if they have developed social skills due to their position.

[Rumrusher]

scheming is a skill a unit can learn so it's possible that you could force this by making some naturally incline to scheme.

[IndigoFenix]

scheming is a skill a unit can learn so it's possible that you could force this by making some naturally incline to scheme.

Skills can't be added through syndromes though.  And making a species with natural scheming ability wouldn't help, because the secret-learners would be competing with the other schemers in their civ.

Actually, secret keepers have a higher-than-average likelihood to take positions of power already (usually about a third to half of the secret keepers in a world also have entity positions), though it isn't really clear why this happens, since non-secret-keepers with the same natural personality traits don't have a greater tendency to get into power.  Unless it's hard-coded.  Or unless I have things backwards, and people in power are more likely to get access to secrets.

Right now I'm more interested in figuring out how to make them more likely to start wars, make peace agreements, take apprentices or write books to spread their secret further, and so on.  Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to scan all of the historical events a unit has been involved in, which would help figure out if personalities impact those.

[IndigoFenix]

So lacking a better method, I've just been scouring Legends Mode by hand to try and find patterns.
It's extremely annoying, because sometimes I can't tell if DF is being brilliant or if it's just random.
For example, I found a human civ leader who was constantly making war on a nearby elven civ.  So I scanned the leader's brain and found that he had the lowest VIOLENT level possible, a dream of BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD, and no notable traits or values that would suggest any kind of war-happy behavior.  He did have high BRAVERY and EXCITEMENT_SEEKING but that was all.
Meanwhile, the queen of the elves had a very high VIOLENT level, and the princess had a very high CRUELTY level.  Yet the humans were the aggressors every time.  (In fact several times, the elves tried to create a treaty to support the humans in war...only to be attacked the next year.)
So...did the peace-loving human lawgiver recognize that the elf queen was a threat to world peace and bravely act to destroy the threat?  Or is it just randomness?

[FantasticDorf]

I have a dwarf migrant with skilled schemer (as a lowly woodcutter) upon arrival and a 'Gain Rank in Society' goal so the things they do are definitely driven by their long-term life goals. Most of all the migrants with 'produce a great work of art' / 'master a skill' are in strictly non-craft fields but still have a manual profession like pressing, while all the ones with masterwork usually are somewhat versed in those fields; I would not be suprised in my own experience whether if you had any 'legendary warriors' join a adveturer or merceary group (its common amongst humans with their broad beliefs)

These ones on this list are still interesting, batheing the world in chaos seems like something Demons or a [POWER] creature like a minotaur would have. People who want to raise a family usually already do have families, quite extensive ones.

Obsession upon achieving immortality usually precludes, whether by right mixture of beliefs or a preassigned thing.

[IndigoFenix]

So, getting back to try a different approach.

Rather than operate through DFHackery, I decided to try using advanced worldgen parameters to spin up a small worldgen paramset with minimal features - a flat plain, with glaciers in the north, tropics in the south, and flat plains in between.  I removed all megabeasts, night creatures, secrets and savagery in an effort to make the setup as invariable as possible.  I then created two civilizations, Ice Giants and Fire Giants, both of them physically identical, with no need for food and drink, and gave them the ability to settle anywhere; differentiated only by one starting in the polar regions and the other in the tropics.  The perfect setting to watch their civs spread across the world and clash in the middle during worldgen.

From there, I began the process of adjusting their traits in an effort to see what would impact worldgen events.

Adjusting ethics to make them opposed to each other worked fine.  If their ethics were similar, wars rarely occurred in worldgen; if their ethics were very different, they would be more likely to go to war.

Differing VALUES didn't appear to do anything noticeable.

After a very many, many tests, I finally found something besides ethics that seemed to make an impact.  IF there was hatred due to differing ethics, giving BOTH sides max-level CONFIDENCE, BRAVERY, VENGEFUL, and AMBITION seemed to increase the chances of conflicts when the two civs met.  This could be viewed by the expansion of both civs grinding to a halt as they met in the middle, the world population would show a noticeable increase in deaths, and this would often cause forts to pop up along the front lines.  Sometimes, one civ would end up taking over the other.  If these personality traits were low, it would be more likely that the civs would simply cross over and build sites on each others' territories, even if they hated each other.

Notably, if only ONE civ had these traits, they would not clash visibly.

This is, so far, the first evidence I have found of personality traits making an impact on worldgen behavior.

[FantasticDorf]

If these personality traits were low, it would be more likely that the civs would simply cross over and build sites on each others' territories, even if they hated each other.

Notably, if only ONE civ had these traits, they would not clash visibly.

This is, so far, the first evidence I have found of personality traits making an impact on worldgen behavior.

I think this may also be why player fortresses are often clogged by elven and goblin economic sites especially who settle nearby, which is a very annoying ongoing issue, while humans and at times dwarves (the intended hill dwarves) don't seem to be all that bothered to come near, and frustratingly lock players out of ordering extra dwarf population when they become a barony.

Other stuff i've heard about but not been able to substantiate are personal leader propensities like anger_propensity, acting in a similar vein to those cultural values to override strength considerations to throwing their lot into wars they've sized up they probably can't win.

[IndigoFenix]

It's very hard to demonstrate a difference in an objective manner, because of the complexity of stuff that can happen in worldgen. I'll run more tests on these bare-bones settings to see if I can find any other patterns.

What's upsetting is that ethic differences are by far the most significant factor in determining whether two civs would fight. I would hope that sufficiently power-hungry leaders would just start wars for territory or personal grudges even without a moral excuse to justify it.

Though I don't think that's entirely impossible. Wars over land ownership, livestock grazing or water rights, and formalized agreements are in the game, but I haven't figured out what triggers them, or if there's a way to make them more likely.

[brewer bob]

PTW, seems interesting -- been wondering if personalities have any effect during worldgen.

[FantasticDorf]

It's very hard to demonstrate a difference in an objective manner, because of the complexity of stuff that can happen in worldgen. I'll run more tests on these bare-bones settings to see if I can find any other patterns.

What's upsetting is that ethic differences are by far the most significant factor in determining whether two civs would fight. I would hope that sufficiently power-hungry leaders would just start wars for territory or personal grudges even without a moral excuse to justify it.

Though I don't think that's entirely impossible. Wars over land ownership, livestock grazing or water rights, and formalized agreements are in the game, but I haven't figured out what triggers them, or if there's a way to make them more likely.

Formalized agreements tend to be a declaration of war in general, prompted by attack trigger. Retro-looking at wars put upon the player by goblins (because dwarves dont declare war, the goblins have to make the first move in reasoning the right time to attack) reveals often this is the casus belli. Disturbing eternal rest comes from mummies and deep risen sieges.

The others (water and grazing rights) i've seen to be inter-civ wars, like groups of humans where the values are randomized enough where they occasionally be abrasive (maybe territorially too close?) and military strategy is much more reduced away from the 'monarch' into site generated lords around towns and keeps for them to make a individual decision for theselves, though i have actually only seen it predominantly with human towns so it might say something for site-type to matter irregardless of who's in charge of it.

You can have a deep risen siege come and occupy a mountain-hall for instance, wherin the enemy will be inside the mountain being capstoned by a dwarf-fort blocking the exit because mountainhomes have a internal tunnel-road leading between forts, as do individual forts link to each other in this way. Point being that unless they're particularly brave, often they get trapped and stay within the mountain forever as a threat kept within.

[IndigoFenix]

So I've found some more stuff.

Although ethics play the largest role in determining whether two civs go to war, with the right personalities it is possible to make civs fight reliably even when they don't have an ethical issue with each other.  The game will generally look for an ethical excuse to explain the cause of the conflict, but if it can't find one it will say "the cause of the conflict is debated by scholars and little is truly known."  I have managed to generate worlds where one race completely exterminates the other though a series of wars, none of which are given an explicit reason.

The likelihood of total war increases greatly if one side significantly outnumbers the other when they first encounter each other (which tends to be pretty random).  This creates an unstable equilibrium, as the side that is more numerous is also more likely to win.  Most worlds either result in both sides colliding and remaining at a level of occasional skirmishes forever, or one side completely overwhelming the other within a century or two.

Personality traits that might improve chances of conflict: HATE_PROPENSITY, ENVY_PROPENSITY, GREED, AMBITION, THOUGHTLESSNESS, and CONFIDENCE.  It's hard to narrow down, but wars definitely seem more likely with these traits involved.

Beyond simple disagreement, ethics appear to make an impact on worldgen behaviors, which impact the chances of wars.  Torture and theft related ethics - possibly others - all seem to increase the chances of conflict if ACCEPTABLE, even if both races are okay with it.  I suppose that finding these ethics ACCEPTABLE means that they don't care about doing it to others - but having their items stolen and their citizens tortured by foreigners still makes them angry.  Hypocrites.

This creates a kind of balance - races with strict ethics are more likely to be outraged by races that don't follow them, but those with loose ethics are more likely to aggravate each other through their general behavior.  Presumably NOT_APPLICABLE, rather than ACCEPTABLE, is intended for societies that have no concept of things like property, territory, or pain.

KILL_NEUTRAL and KILL_ENEMY ethics are, not surprisingly, disproportionately important when it comes to starting or continuing wars.  Making both REQUIRED greatly increases the chances of conflict.  Making KILL_ENEMY forbidden turns battles rather interesting - pacifists will never be the aggressors and they will never be recorded as attacking an enemy, but somehow the attackers can still suffer losses, possibly animal-inflicted.

Conflicts over territory, water, grazing rights, and livestock ownership seem to occur mostly between sites within a civilization, but I have seen some inter-civ conflicts.  It is not used as a reason when no other reason is available (that would be the above "debated by scholars" line), it appears to be a real in-game event.  Loose property-related ethics may play a role here - I have seen these wars erupt while testing loose ethic behavior, but when both races have strict ethics they do not happen.

[brewer bob]

Personality traits that might improve chances of conflict: HATE_PROPENSITY, ENVY_PROPENSITY, GREED, AMBITION, THOUGHTLESSNESS, and CONFIDENCE.  It's hard to narrow down, but wars definitely seem more likely with these traits involved.

So, adding boosts to these with a custom secret might increase the chances of the civ going to war, if the leader of the civ has learned the secret (presuming the leader's personality matters)?

[IndigoFenix]

Personality traits that might improve chances of conflict: HATE_PROPENSITY, ENVY_PROPENSITY, GREED, AMBITION, THOUGHTLESSNESS, and CONFIDENCE.  It's hard to narrow down, but wars definitely seem more likely with these traits involved.

So, adding boosts to these with a custom secret might increase the chances of the civ going to war, if the leader of the civ has learned the secret (presuming the leader's personality matters)?

See, that's what's baffling me.  While my latest tests do demonstrate that personality - at least of an entire species - can have an impact on worldgen events, it doesn't change the fact that my original method of testing - actively scanning the personality of every unit associated with a particular life event in Legends mode and then averaging them out in order to see if they deviated from the average - completely failed to find ANY connection between a personality trait and making any kind of decision, be it writing a book, angering a god, getting married, taking a position, and so on.  (I know the code is finding the right units, because it DID find connections between SKILLS and events - nobles had above-average social skills, warriors had above-average combat skills, and the average of units with a particular profession had high skill levels in that profession.)

That script would be a much better way of doing personality science, but either there's something really weird about how worldgen associates behaviors with units, or something is wrong with the script itself.  I'd like to see if any talented DFHackers could maybe check it out and see if they could find out what I'm doing wrong.