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Author Topic: Museum III, adventure succession game (DF 0.47.05)  (Read 392061 times)

kesperan

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2295 on: September 17, 2022, 10:42:42 pm »

Well that is strange.

It’s not a spoiler to say that Moldath hasn’t learned any secrets since 880, so I’m not sure how that has happened.

I hope it’s fixable.
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AvolitionBrit

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2296 on: September 18, 2022, 05:22:22 am »

Yeah, i posted on the legends viewer thread so hopefully we can get a fix and find out what the cause is.
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Lurker Z

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2297 on: September 19, 2022, 04:33:49 pm »

So I have... mixed news. Remember when a few months ago I attempted to recreate Orid Xem from seed to near-total failure? While I managed to get the geography right, the names were all different, including of geography (mountains, jungles etc.), settlements, civilizations, characters, history, everything. I didn't bother checking most of it out, but if you dropped one of our Orid Xem-ers there, they wouldn't know they were on the same world. I called that world Orid Xem Secundus, but then renamed it to Orid Xem Protos. This is the world (more or less) that would have resulted if Bralbaard hadn't change a parameter here and there.

Spoiler: Images (click to show/hide)

I can't say I've been searching for a solution since that time, but an idea hit me. Now, while I was doing that, I was reading the DF wiki on world generation and it says:

Quote
In older versions, the same seed value(s) produced identical worlds on every computer at any time (if other parameters were identical, too). In the current version, the seed values for the world itself and the names seem to produce the same result, but you will get changes in events which will result in a very different world history. It seems like the history is partly random and not completely connected to the seed. Keep this in mind if you want to regenerate a particular world.

But I ignored that as I looked upon my results and expected the world to despair! I had did it. Same civilizations, same creatures, same events, same artifact names! It was amazing! Yes, a few things changed down the line, but surely we could recover Orid Xem to its true, unhidden history for future generations to know! The Walled Dye is there, Oddom is there, she turns necromancer at the exact same day, the same gods, everything.

There were... just a few snags.



But my biggest concern is, each 3 times I generated the world, this gal shows up...

Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)

An interesting thing is that in two generated worlds, with the same death age, in one she has one extra child. But that's not the problem. The problem is Galka "Tunnelglazes" Gujegcango herself, or rather what she represents. And what she represents is that in 3 out of 3 generated worlds, she took the place of an Orid Xem Prime Omon Obin Law-Giver early in its history, which threw off the whole chain of command and more-over, is sure to have caused butterflies. Now, you'd think with Omon Obin being isolated, this wouldn't create waves in the world. Maybe that's correct. But if she didn't, some other things did.

Things go off the rails after that. The Assault of Gales/Okgush Irka never happens, not in the two worlds I generated until the year 700. Oddom wins both times. And it's surprisingly not the end of the world. Wellllll, I say that...

Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)

It looks like I was inspired in choosing Omon Obin for most of my characters, it's the only one left standing. The elves are dead (well, some undead may be still running around), the goblins are almost destroyed and the dwarves somehow still survive, but barely. At least Oddom has stopped her conquest in the south and the north is sa-


Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)

Whoops.

But let's return to Galka. Why does she represent the biggest threat to the restoration of the True Orid Xem Unveiled? Because all these worlds I generated with histo-

Wait. I had an idea. I'll get back to you in a while. While this post may seem like mad ramblings, I'll leave this here and post updates as soon as I test my new theory.

(I swear that last mid-cut was not planned, I literally got an idea to restore Orid Xem while I was typing.)

Meanwhile, have some elven madness (the "necromancers" are obviously blighted thrall equivalents):

Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)



No, it seems my theory didn't pan out. I was actually generating the world with historical figures culled. With them unculled, Ebpel exists, but she doesn't inherit any longer because... she's passed over for her younger sister for no reason? ... This might require more investigating/generating.

I also notice the world I just generated entered in 202 in the Third Age of Myth, compared with Orid Xem Prime which enters this period since 160. This is definitely a large change in the world already.



Well, to finish my post, my original belief (which may be true even now) was that we might never recover the original Orid Xem, or even one remotely close to it. However, with at least the first century being near-identical, it does help us identify some historical characters which were outright culled in Orid Xem Prime. While not foolproof that they'll be the same, it can be tested by re-generating the world again and again and see the most common creatures in it. One thing that is very important to me is that we finally have the region names unhidden, which will help my obsession with using the original names of everything in the game. Or people could just regen the game to a time they want to play and save some civilizations, destroy others or do other things in the 1st century. Do note that as things are history break down from about the start of the 1st century (maybe it can be pushed further) and that once you generated the world, you might never get those variables again, so be careful when you set your end date.

I'll upload on DFFD the template with which you can create your own Orid Xem, "slightly" modified, but it is so far the best I could do.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 05:08:05 pm by Lurker Z »
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AvolitionBrit

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2298 on: September 19, 2022, 05:05:23 pm »

Interesting how one change in the leadership causes such a shift from the norm. I wonder what Galka was like, what did she do in events? Was she mummifed and if so we could use some dfhack trickery to take control of her and learn her personality.

DF title passing seems to be a interesting case, it goes down, will not travel across the lines. The oldest isn't picked but instead seems to be random offspring be that the preference of the deceased monarch or election by the noble. It also means that the seat of power easily shifts and doesn't stay within one house. Not sure if there is a word for this

Looking forward to seeing what changes have occured in QD turn.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 05:11:49 pm by AvolitionBrit »
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Lurker Z

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2299 on: September 19, 2022, 05:13:56 pm »

Updated post. Galka doesn't even exist with culled historical figures off. Ouch.

Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)

Well, here's her history. A little more stripey than I believed. Still, you could do more than that if you properly generate the world with her, you can generate it to the year before she dies and unretire-anyone and play her, I suppose. I'll see about packing the template on how to generate Orid Xem as I have.

Edit: I still have a version of the world where she's alive, so I can do a quick unretire-anyone on her for you.



It might help generate a world the closest to Orid Xem Prime if we knew for certain what DF version it was generated in. The logs say 47.04 and this is what I used, but if anyone (shoutout to Bralbaard especially) who knows for certain on what version the first turn of the game was, it might help get even closer.



Special delivery, Galka personality:
Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)

By the way, yes, she was mummified.



DF title passing seems to be a interesting case, it goes down, will not travel across the lines. The oldest isn't picked but instead seems to be random offspring be that the preference of the deceased monarch or election by the noble. It also means that the seat of power easily shifts and doesn't stay within one house. Not sure if there is a word for this.
I always thought it's absolute primogeniture, unless the monarch doesn't have (eligible) children (i.e. even if you're not dead, you can still be passed off by: dying then being resurrected (I think DF resets that character's level of influence in a civilization with their resurrection), becoming the enemy of that civilization (i.e. werecreature). We've seen necromancers becoming leaders of their civs in other worlds, but not too much in the .40+ versions. I have myself seen in the current version a monarch up and leaving (and being dethroned, naturally) to a necro tower to apprentice to a necromancer to learn to be one.

I'm also somewhat sure I've seen the title pass to uncles or step-brothers, though I may be wrong or it could have been completely random and they just happened to be related, practically starting a different dynasty from the same family.



Re: Mummies. I've found that with some full-heal and shenanigans, you can turn a mummy into a normal mortal being (who apparently doesn't keel over and die for some reason). That being said:
* They'll lose all their titles (bar the title they created themselves as the leader of the group when they returned to life)
* If in fort mode, they'll still be aggressive towards your group.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 05:39:48 pm by Lurker Z »
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AvolitionBrit

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2300 on: September 19, 2022, 05:31:23 pm »

The human who sold Orid Xem

Cheers, so she was a criminal and doesn't enjoy cooperation
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Bralbaard

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2301 on: September 19, 2022, 05:50:07 pm »

Yes history seeds seem to be broken, sadly. 
I've tried to recreate the world in the past as well, but just could not get it right. Even when using what should be the exact copy of df47.04 it was generated in, and the same raws you get different results.
It's a shame because some interesting stuff could be done if we had working seeds.
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TheFlame52

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2302 on: September 19, 2022, 05:59:16 pm »

I've noticed that pausing in the middle of worldgen causes things to diverge. Pausing makes sites realize they're unoccupied, among other things.

Quantum Drop

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2303 on: September 19, 2022, 06:23:55 pm »

Should have the save up tomorrow evening; apologies for running overtime on this turn. In the meantime, Orid Xem has apparently decided it's time for another change:

« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 06:26:56 pm by Quantum Drop »
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I am ambushed by humans, and for a change, they do not drop dead immediately. I bash the master with my ladle, and he is propelled away. While in mid-air, he dies of old age.

Lurker Z

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2304 on: September 19, 2022, 06:30:05 pm »

I've noticed that pausing in the middle of worldgen causes things to diverge. Pausing makes sites realize they're unoccupied, among other things.
I don't think I did that, but we have all the time in the world to test theories.



I found a world where Oddom... laired? Eh? Eh? Pretty weird world, two different civs instead of the Most Sin, 30k elves, 90k goblins, 144k humans, 15k dwarves. Looks like a world people play more regularly. Dunno where all those humans are, since all the civs barely account for 50k humans.

Spoiler: Images (click to show/hide)
This is some Twilight Zone level spookiness. I know some of those names. They have no reason to be associate with Oddom in such normal, every day fashion. It's like seeing a world where Hitler became an artist and they're making a movie about him and him moving through Germany, Poland, France etc. making art exposés. One thing that does make sense is her relation to astronomy, her Orid Xem Prime daughter was a legendary scholar with astronomy-related discoveries I think.

Should have the save up tomorrow evening; apologies for running overtime on this turn. In the meantime, Orid Xem has apparently decided it's time for another change:


Nice to see an update, QD. You're welcome to join our discoveries of Weird Orid Xems.
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AvolitionBrit

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2305 on: September 19, 2022, 06:39:19 pm »

Interesting I just had a thought in bed, does our talking cave dragon exist in the other worlds?

Ah glad to see twilight has returned. Wonder if the golblins will restore the golden age as they recoup their losses
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 06:40:58 pm by AvolitionBrit »
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Lurker Z

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2306 on: September 19, 2022, 06:50:46 pm »

Nirmek? I'm really doubtful, he's "born" in the 4th century, but who knows when he's generated (if you generate a dwarf at the start of the 7th century, he's given a "birth day" in the 650s or earlier. If you generate an elf or goblin at the same day, they'll be given a "birth date" in the 400s-500s. I'll look it up, but I doubt it. Also, nitpick, but from what I remember, Bralbaard said he met Nirmek, tried to talk to the cave dragon, but Nirmek doesn't have voice rights or something. He's sapient and civilized, sure, but can't talk (which makes sense since he's an animal who gained sapience through slavery, because that's how things work in Orid Xem).

Faci did survive into the 8th century in at least Oddom Girdergrove the Cradle of Biting's world. Islas was ganked here by the 2nd century. I think most dragons bar Faci get ganked by the 8th century, no idea why they're more squishy and why she survives.

Well, we have this gal, who as the only one of her kind, became sapient too. Weird.

Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)



Edëmtusung wasn't destroyed by Faci in this world, but by Snuko. He also has 4 very living kids with Ricote in the 700s. Yikes. Still only 10 rocs in this world. Calovi ganked in year 75. This really is some funky mirror universe, the names are the same, but the events diverge greatly.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 07:23:52 pm by Lurker Z »
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kesperan

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2307 on: September 19, 2022, 07:01:51 pm »

Should have the save up tomorrow evening; apologies for running overtime on this turn. In the meantime, Orid Xem has apparently decided it's time for another change:



Yeah, I think that might have been Moldath. The roc feather didn't fare too well in my turn. The age change only seems to pop up in Fort mode for some reason.

Loving these alternate history What If..? moments, Lurker!
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AvolitionBrit

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2308 on: September 19, 2022, 07:05:41 pm »

Interesting, I guess enslavement of cave dragons awakens their sapience. I guess it's that when they are enslaved, the game makes them do that behaviour and a likely outcome is to become a refugee which results in fleeing one site and joining a group. With generation not taking to account this is a beast.

Yeah it's only in fort mode that the age changes, from what I recall it checks the age criteria at the start of each new year in fort mode.
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kesperan

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Re: Museum III, adventure succession game
« Reply #2309 on: September 19, 2022, 07:20:50 pm »

Which means we have reached the year 900, the 10th century dawns after 200 years of The Museum III.
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