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Author Topic: Books and population  (Read 3736 times)

martinuzz

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Books and population
« on: June 15, 2020, 05:45:59 pm »

I haven't had a single book written in my fort despite my dwarves having had 3 full season sessions of all being confined to the library with a pull lever(R) incentive. They only discuss and ponder.  They have plenty quires in a chest.

I am suddenly wondering.. Since a book is an artefact.. I have less than 20 dwarves (breeding a population from 2 married couples).
Will they only start writing books after population 20, just like strange moods?


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Leonidas

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2020, 06:29:10 pm »

No, books are made through strange moods. It's a separate process.

To write books, your dwarves need knowledge of topics. But exactly how they acquire that knowledge is not fully understood. Relevant skills and traits probably help. Visiting scholars can probably bring knowledge and transmit it to your scholars. Your scholars may rarely have a breakthrough. Scholars can presumably gain knowledge by reading books containing the knowledge.

The problem is that there's currently no way to see what knowledge individual dwarves possess, unless you happen to get a breakthrough announcement. Someone with lua knowledge could probably write the script, but so far they haven't. It would be a difficult script to design, because there are so many topics.

The closest you'll come to seeing the knowledge in your fort is Patrik's excellent Librarian script, which will tell you what knowledge is in your books and what knowledge is in other books that you might acquire. Presumably, your scholars will read the books that you've bought or stolen and learn that knowledge.

If you want to write more books, it might help to put your scholars in a library with no bookshelves. When I had that setup, my scholars were writing lots of books. Only later did I realize that they were probably writing essentially the same books over and over about the topics that they knew. My guess is that a scholar periodically reaches a point in his cycle where he can either write a book about a topic that he knows, or read a book about a topic that he doesn't know. Ever since I started stealing books en masse, my scholars have stopped writing. Maybe that means that they're learning new topics. I can't tell.
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knutor

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 09:08:04 pm »

The fortress I had lotsa books wriitten in, was before I started managing them, and retrieving them with display cases.

Ya wanna get lotsa scholars, thats about all I know. It had that. Maybe keep them all busy, by making lotsa copies, to keep them producing new thoughts.

Make Book /R within craftdwarf workstation set to the best bookbinders, not really working like other features. Scoll, too, is a lil off, in my games. I buy scrolls, autotanner doesnt make them.
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Urist9876

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 05:44:16 am »

I started a very young pocketworld. Very few visitors. No scholars. Caravans brought no books.

I assigned a dwarf as scholar and he started to ponder the Sun. After much pondering he became dabling astronomer. Then he gave up and wrote a book: The mountain homes: problems and solutions. It concerned his scholarship and the problems he encountered during study. It was amateurish at best.

Gold was the only available metal available at the embark. Gold book bindings were made. A scribe appointed. Many copies were made of the one book that the dwarves know about. Now over a hundred dwarves must have read how hard it was to discover something.

I guess i was lucky he gave up :P
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knutor

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 08:45:34 pm »

Do you have a bookbinder?
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Albedo

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2020, 08:04:14 pm »

Do you have tables, chairs and blank books ("scrolls/quires") ? Using burrows?

I don't believe that books require a mood - they're not supposed to, if WAI. They are, indeed, stocked as "artifacts", but WAI they should be written by any scholarly type.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2020, 02:49:04 am »

No, as Albedo said, books do not require strange moods. Many books are written by humans, who cannot have strange moods, and the logic behind book writing is completely different from that behind strange moods. It can also be noted that DF has at least one additional way of creating artifacts, namely those created from parts of "saints" by religions.
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martinuzz

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2020, 04:51:23 pm »

I'm not wondering if books require strange moods, I know they don't.
I was just wondering if there is a population requirement for them just like there is for moods because I don't get any books written with my 18 dwarves.
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Leonidas

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2020, 10:42:10 pm »

I'm not wondering if books require strange moods, I know they don't.
I was just wondering if there is a population requirement for them just like there is for moods because I don't get any books written with my 18 dwarves.
I seriously doubt that anything scholars do is affected by wealth or total population.

The scholar system seems to be built around binary knowledge of the topics. If a scholar knows about a topic, then he might write about it. But he would prefer to learn about new topics from books, from other scholars, and from breakthroughs.

If you want your scholars to write books regardless of topic, then use this library setup. Your scholars will write instead of learning.

If you want your scholars to learn about the topics and then hopefully eventually write about them, my theory is that you need to attract foreign scholars and buy/steal lots of books. The frustrating part is that there's currently no way to see knowledge increasing among your scholars. Right now we just have to take on faith that all the discussing and reading will lead to all the scholars sharing all the local topic knowledge with each other, which will then lead to breakthroughs in the unknown topics.

On the plus side, raid missions are really easy right now. So if you have a big older world with lots of foreign knowledge, then there's probably a book somewhere on most topics, and you just need to steal them. You can use Patrik's Librarian Script to see which books exist on each topic, then you can use Legends Viewer to locate the books on the world map. But then, missions can cause some nasty bugs.
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knutor

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2020, 02:00:38 am »

I cannot seem to get books, either. My best thinkers, never think. Pub lib is only 2 3x3, surrounded by windows to daydream, and desks. Of 18 blocks, 12 have thrones, 1 has lever, and 3 chests, and 2 decorated built mechanisms. Ciz Lib is enormous, 200ish books, originals all in kings artifact and coin room. 10 copies/per. 44 bookshelves. Not one scholar visits me. Ive about 6 public lib scholars linked to lever. 1 civ lib scholar and 6 scribes. Should I stick just one scribe in public lib? You know to take dictation?
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martinuzz

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2020, 04:41:42 am »

If you want your scholars to write books regardless of topic, then use this library setup. Your scholars will write instead of learning.

Already have that setup, doesn't help. They just ponder and discuss.  I did import two dozen books, most about fortresses, but also two about science subjects (sun revolving around the world and vice versa).All dwarves have finished reading all books years ago.
My starting dwarves also all have a skillpoint into one of the science skills to start with, and a point in writer.
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knutor

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2020, 08:58:08 pm »

We should be given more hints about how it all works. Like are these books, I bought of the merchant from caravan in depot, are they reseting a fortress scholar timer, somewhere.
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Shark Dentistry, looking in the Raws.

Blue_Dwarf

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2020, 02:29:39 am »

Someone with lua knowledge could probably write the script, but so far they haven't.

So basically, we need a scholar to bring some lua knowledge here, so that someone makes a breakthrough and writes a script, that will produce knowledge about dwarves writing books.
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Leonidas

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2020, 01:05:52 pm »

Someone with lua knowledge could probably write the script, but so far they haven't.

So basically, we need a scholar to bring some lua knowledge here, so that someone makes a breakthrough and writes a script, that will produce knowledge about dwarves writing books.
I'm not sure how difficult the programming would be, but the design seems like the bigger challenge. There are around 300 topics. Let's say that a big library has 100 scholars. That's 30,000 bits to represent somehow, plus the knowledge that's in the books.

The librarian script's science page is a good starting point. It shows a symbol for each topic that's green if you have a book for that topic in your library, and red if you don't. Then it has a detail screen for each topic showing which books cover that topic, divided into books in your library and books outside your library. Combined with Legends Viewer, it's a great place to start a campaign of wholesale book theft.

Here's an idea on how to improve the science page:
A green number would mean that there's at least one book in the library on that topic, and that's the number of scholars in your library who know about it. To keep the single-digit format, any value over nine would be shown as a nine.
A yellow number would indicate that there aren't any books in the library about the topic, but that's the number of scholars in your library who know about it.
A blue exclamation mark would mean that there's at least one book in your library on the topic, but none of your scholars have learned it yet.
A bright red @ symbol would indicate that you have no books on that topic and none of your scholars know about it, but books on the topic exist somewhere in the world.
A dark red question mark would indicate that your scholars know nothing about the topic and there are no books anywhere in the world about it.

That screen would also be simpler if the user could navigate a cursor around the topic grid directly, which would free up the lower left area for a list of creatures in the fort who know about that topic. (I say "creatures" rather than "scholars" because we will also want to see the knowledge of visitors and non-scholars.)

Selecting a creature's name would pull up that individual's topic detail screen. Similar to the fortress-wide topic screen, a green symbol would mean that the creature knows about the topic, and there's a local book on it. A yellow symbol would mean knowledge with no local book, so you hope that the creature starts writing. A blue symbol would mean that the creature doesn't know about the topic but some book or scholar in the fort does, so you hope that the creature learns the topic. And a red symbol would mean that no creatures or books in the fort know about the topic. The individual detail screen would also show which topic they're working on, if any, and where they stand on breakthrough credits. I still don't understand breakthrough credits.

The big dream for a scholar script would be tracking scholar-related events. Part of why libraries are currently so boring is that there's no access to the underlying story. It's clear that something interesting is happening. Fikod reads a book and gains knowledge. Dastot becomes an apprentice of Urist. Ablel writes a book. Mebzuth attempts a breakthrough and fails. Lolor gains skill experience during a discussion. So the ideal scholar script would run in the background and compile a list of these types of events. After I steal or buy a book on a new topic, I would love to read the log of my scholars reading the book and acquiring the knowledge.

Tracking events like that may be impossible right now. The events may not even exist yet, and Toady will need to create them. But I think that it would help Toady, when he gets around to it, to develop a clear concept of how a scholar-and-book system ought to work.
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knutor

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Re: Books and population
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2020, 02:05:24 pm »


It is said,
In 975, the human Ino Bedwoman visited Presentvirgin.

@Mart, didyaperchance disable nighmares in an adv worldgen?

It is also said,
books are created by he who has recently had a nightmare
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"I don't often drink Mead, but when I do... I prefer Dee Eef's.  -The most interesting Dwarf in the World.  Stay thirsty, my friend.
Shark Dentistry, looking in the Raws.
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