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Author Topic: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [Castle Motors: COMPLETE!]  (Read 59921 times)

Sensei

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Should we worry about radios (or carbs) pushing us out of Budget markets?  You also said the cars are selling more in medium brackets than budget ones anyway.
Proooobably not? Automation EconomicsTM are weird in the current version of the game. I think that practically speaking, we won't be REALLY selling to budget again until our factory hits, at least, large. It seems like whatever we design is still desirable to normal demographics. Now, would they actually pay the same margin on a car with a more expensive base cost, if it's more competitive? Not sure. So, I don't actually know whether it's more profitable to make the best car we can or a cheap one that's good enough for people willing to pay a 100% markup.
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Aseaheru

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 Well, I think now might be the time for getting a new engine and new family of cars going. The engine about now, really, the cars possibly once we get the driver assists in '56? In any case, fer bodies, my brain is telling me to say the '55 2m boxes shortly before it cries out "what about the rounded 55 2m or the 55 2.6m? what are they like? howmany variants do they have?"(seriously, I wish it was easier to see all variants of a body at a time).
 I think getting radios in our new family should be fine at this point, likewise getting in up-to-date safety(If I remember watching videos right, they prefer paying more for safety than getting a cheaper car?). Save city shitbox design for when we get front wheel drive tho...
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mightymushroom

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I understand the appeal of waiting for unlocks, but I'm sensing that there will almost always be something more just around the corner. Tell those lazy design dwarves to finish quaffing the break room ale and get back to work.

Proposal: the Bay 12 Baron
Target demo: Premium?*
Body type: '55 2.5m 4-door; possibility for a wagon trim aimed at Family P to hit the Family market from both sides
Engine: 90° V8 SOHC (assuming it fits)
Other Stuff: Yes
Color: how about Plump Helmet Noble Purple

*I'm not totally sure what the difference between, say, Premium and Luxury segments entails.

For research, I rather fancy the "go wild" plan, let's show the world what a real masterwork automobile can be!
With priority toward safety, driver assists, and more engine techs.
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EuchreJack

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I understand the appeal of waiting for unlocks, but I'm sensing that there will almost always be something more just around the corner. Tell those lazy design dwarves to finish quaffing the break room ale and get back to work.

Proposal: the Bay 12 Baron
Target demo: Premium?*
Body type: '55 2.5m 4-door; possibility for a wagon trim aimed at Family P to hit the Family market from both sides
Engine: 90° V8 SOHC (assuming it fits)
Other Stuff: Yes
Color: how about Plump Helmet Noble Purple

*I'm not totally sure what the difference between, say, Premium and Luxury segments entails.

For research, I rather fancy the "go wild" plan, let's show the world what a real masterwork automobile can be!
With priority toward safety, driver assists, and more engine techs.

+1, except maybe a convertible sedan instead of a wagon.  I think the luxury segment is where the untapped wealth resides.

King Zultan

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I understand the appeal of waiting for unlocks, but I'm sensing that there will almost always be something more just around the corner. Tell those lazy design dwarves to finish quaffing the break room ale and get back to work.

Proposal: the Bay 12 Baron
Target demo: Premium?*
Body type: '55 2.5m 4-door; possibility for a wagon trim aimed at Family P to hit the Family market from both sides
Engine: 90° V8 SOHC (assuming it fits)
Other Stuff: Yes
Color: how about Plump Helmet Noble Purple

*I'm not totally sure what the difference between, say, Premium and Luxury segments entails.

For research, I rather fancy the "go wild" plan, let's show the world what a real masterwork automobile can be!
With priority toward safety, driver assists, and more engine techs.

+1, except maybe a convertible sedan instead of a wagon.  I think the luxury segment is where the untapped wealth resides.
I'll throw a +1 to that as long as there is a wagon version, as wagons are what dwarves want!
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EuchreJack

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I'll change my vote to be +1 in both wagon and convertible sedan trims.

Sensei

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I'll get a look at it soon. The thing to know is, the Premium demographic is for regular upmarket cars (think your standard BMW or high end Chrysler) and the Luxury demographic is much wealthier and fewer in number (think Bentley or Rolls-Royce).

Now, factory size has a LOT to do with which one we target. If we go with a small factory ot would probably skew towards luxury, and we would have to use an aluminum body. That means if we ever try to move it into a medium factory there will be efficiency penalties. Aluminum is "limited production", a penalty which gets worse the larger your factory is. However, I'm iffy about whether we can afford a Medium factory as well as a new (probably Small) engine factory at this time. Well, let's assume we could in 4-6 years when engineering is finished.

Our factory size ALSO affects how efficient it is to produce multiple trims. A small factory should probably stick to 2, maybe 3 but I'm not sure wagon buyers go that upmarket (I could be wrong). A medium factory should handle 3 trims fine.

So, we should decide on whether were targeting a medium factory size (and steel construction) or a small factory size (and expensive aluminum construction). It affects a lot about our car.
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Aseaheru

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 The only time we should do Small is if we are doing fancy limited edition jobbies. Actually, theres a question, what size do things need to be for the leather workshop?

Anyways, next mainline vehicle type...

Quote from: B12 Migrant
Target Demographic(s): utility/farm/family/light delivery/passenger fleet(?)
Body Type: '55 2.0m box(wagon and truck first body types)
Engine: B4 SOHC engineered for torque
Other stuff: standard AM in wagon, nothing in truck. I think its possible to use rear leaf for the truck and something nice for the wagon, but something to test. Produce in existing medium factory, if we think we have enough money upgrade the factory to M3, otherwise try to shove in a QA shop.

Future facelifts:
Truck monocoque when we get that for the truck, engine with filled-in cylinders to increase comfort and fuel efficiency for cars. Wagon and sedan in the same batch.

 Also, I might be wrong, but watching the v4 campaign letsplay the devs are pumping out, it looks like allowing the engine to go to real high MPH increases fuel efficiency? Might want to look into doing that for economy versions of engines or flat-out economy I3s(or whatever we go with for that)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:23:03 pm by Aseaheru »
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mightymushroom

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I'll change my vote to be +1 in both wagon and convertible sedan trims.
There is a '55 2.4m shell that's showing both those options. I'd lose my four doors but maybe that's okay.

I'm not sure wagon buyers go that upmarket (I could be wrong).
I just saw the Family P demographic and thought to myself, "family = wagon, P = willing to pay for amenities." It might be the wagon trim has stripped-down options compared to the actual Premium convertible offering but it might work. I'd like to try, what's the worst that can happen?

Quote from: B12 [i
Migrant[/i]]
Target Demographic(s): utility/farm/family/light delivery/passenger fleet(?)
Body Type: '55 2.0m box(wagon and truck first body types)
Engine: B4 SOHC engineered for torque
Other stuff: standard AM in wagon, nothing in truck. I think its possible to use rear leaf for the truck and something nice for the wagon, but something to test. Produce in existing medium factory, if we think we have enough money upgrade the factory to M3, otherwise try to shove in a QA shop.
Our very popular budget Urist is a 2.6m vehicle, I'm not sure a 2.0m body type has enough space to appeal to all the same people looking for space to stuff their spare kids and old socks. I'd call this more "City/Commuter" than "Family/Farm" but that doesn't mean it wouldn't sell. I could also be underestimating folks' willingness to squeeze together.

I'm eager enough to try breaking into an upscale market that I would be willing to skip redesigning our low end car until that project is completed. The estimated competitiveness was 228 I believe, hopefully our current model will have legs.
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MrRoboto75

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Also, I might be wrong, but watching the v4 campaign letsplay the devs are pumping out, it looks like allowing the engine to go to real high MPH increases fuel efficiency? Might want to look into doing that for economy versions of engines or flat-out economy I3s(or whatever we go with for that)

Correct, but I think the original Urist already has an overdrive gear to do that.

I think chassis/suspension type is tied to the model, not the trim, so the wagon would also have a leaf rear.  Considering wagons have big trunk space anyways, it might not be a bad thing really.
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Aseaheru

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The '55 2m chassis families both have wagons, so..? Might just not be comfy Mushroom?

The reason why I went for the Boxy 2m was because I cant find out(anywhere) what other versions the rounded '55 2m family holds past its sedan, convertible, sedan v2 and wagon options. Other than, of course, more options. (psst, Sensei, can we get shown those other options? I will probably want to swap the Migrant fer them if it has a van and/or a truck option.)
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Sensei

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1955: Baron Proposal]
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2020, 12:58:11 am »

The Baron

Well, it's time to design a new car, and it looks like the Baron is our main pick.
I understand the appeal of waiting for unlocks, but I'm sensing that there will almost always be something more just around the corner. Tell those lazy design dwarves to finish quaffing the break room ale and get back to work.

Proposal: the Bay 12 Baron
Target demo: Premium?*
Body type: '55 2.5m 4-door; possibility for a wagon trim aimed at Family P to hit the Family market from both sides
Engine: 90° V8 SOHC (assuming it fits)
Other Stuff: Yes
Color: how about Plump Helmet Noble Purple

*I'm not totally sure what the difference between, say, Premium and Luxury segments entails.

For research, I rather fancy the "go wild" plan, let's show the world what a real masterwork automobile can be!
With priority toward safety, driver assists, and more engine techs.
It also looks like demand is for a wagon version too. Nobody's said it explicitly, but I take it to mean we're aiming for Steel construction and the Medium factory that's necessary for that. I also didn't get to that Familiarity mini update, so it looks like we'll be talking about that while we go through the design for the Baron.

Oh, but FIRST first, here's what we're targeting: Premium, and Family Premium. Notice that they both have a specific desired body type, the Sedan. By the way, the money values for these screens are new category, Untapped Revenue- the total amount of spending in each market, minus what we're currently earning. It's not limited to awareness, so the numbers are 2-4 times what's realistic. But of course, if it was it would assume we're stuck at 5% awareness in Premium, which will change as soon as we actually start selling.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, since it came up, here's City- they prefer hatchbacks. Family itself has no desired body type, but they are limited to certain body types by their seating requirements.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, of course, here's the big tradeoff in Automation: you can directly target a demographic, or try to hit multiple. For example, family probably prefers a wagon due to the cargo space, and possibly a third row of seats. Premium tends to prefer four seats instead of five, because it's more comfortable, and it has to be a sedan. But, a five-seat sedan will hit both, just not as competitive in either. What will sell more? Hard to judge.


On to the Baron! One more market screen before we start. Market budgets! It looks like Premium runs a bit more expensive than Family Premium. A car in the $20-25k range could hit both, and convertible too- although the '55 2.5m body does not have a convertible variant. In fact, if we want a car with a convertible AND a wagon (or, at least, four doors) to hit family, we basically have to go all the way back to '46. So, it looks like a convertible is out for this model.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The chassis will be steel, monocoque, and double wishbones all around. For these screenshots I'm keeping familiarity highlight on- this makes the options more yellow the more familiarity you have. We have 12.2% familiarity in steel body panels, which directly reduces the engineering time by that much. Also, Monocoque Chassis has 0 familiarity and an engineering time of 30 months, which is enormous (Ladder Frame takes 6). We really should just bite the cost though. This is supposed to be a high-tech car, and monocoque is the choice of chassis type for basically all modern cars, so building familiarity now is good. The suspension is also potentially expensive, but hey, premium. You can also see that we have familiarity in front double wishbone, but not rear.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

We've decided on a V8 for this car, but for reference, we've built up 16.6% Familiarity in Inline 4 motors, and a 9.4% familiarity with I6, and I3. Now, every time we engineer (or facelift) something, we gain a certain amount of familiarity. We also gain familiarity in other things which are similar, according to some hidden ratio. Furthermore, we lose familiarity after not engineering things for a while. If I had to guess, we gain 0.6 times the I4 familiarity in I6 and I3, and then we lose 4% of the familiarity we had, or so, but I don't really know for sure how it works. In any case, the familiarity conversion factor between I4 to I6 and I3 is the same, and it's a little more than half.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It also turns out, we have exactly 9.6% familiarity with V8's, saving us a little over 4 months. We have no familiarity at all in V12, or boxers. Presumably if we had been making I6 motors this whole time, we would have 9.6% familiarity with V12 instead of V8. Since none of this is actually labeled we just have to make intuitive guesses.


Pushrod valves have given us familiarity in SOHC, but very little (3.3%) and even less if I want to spring for high-tech 4-valve (1.1%) which I'll decide if it's worth the engineering time cost later. Presumably we only gained familiarity when we first made the Urist MC engine family, because we don't re-engineer this part during facelifts.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also not pictured: we have around 15% familiarity with the engine block material (cast iron) itself, and the bottom end parts. We haven't unlocked new options in these areas. One thing to think about with Familiarity is it doesn't just give bonuses to stuff we have, it also gives bonuses to future tech! For example at some point we'll unlocked Forged engine internals, as well as Low Friction Cast. We'll start with familiarity in the newer cast stuff as soon as it unlocks. This also affects some other areas we can easily predict. For example, if we usually go with Standard safety systems- say, Standard 40's, we gain familiarity with the next two generations, Standard 50's and a little in Standard 60's (in addition to other 40's era types). This also affects entertainment systems in a similar way- I think. I'm pretty sure that covers what I have to say about Familiarity, except for specific techs. Oh, and one more thing- the Pressure slider in the Engineering tab has a big effect on familiarity gains. So, if we want to focus on research, we can allow a project to take longer.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I ended up going with Advanced 50's- premium demands good safety. I also got our V8 up to 200 horsepower with a 3.7 liter displacement. And it's cool but... look at the top right corner of the second pic- 7.8% wheelspin! And with fancy new Radial tire tech and very wide tires, it's still not enough to counteract, plus our material cost for tires is now up to an insane $2300 at 150mm width. Even though our affordability percentage is good, our competitiveness is actually getting dinged from the cost compared to narrower tires. It looks like I'm going to need to de-tune the engine a bit so I can cancel out wheelspin with narrower tires.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...so here's what we ended up with. A little under 3.5L, 142 horsepower. Besides being smaller, I choked it with a small exhaust and brought the cams WAY down. At least we know there's a lot more power potential in this engine.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

After fine tuning I can get it to 158 in Premium with 5 seats (also 141 in Family Premium) or 173 in Premium with 4 seats, but Family Premium goes down to 130. This is also assuming we're willing to take advantage of Luxury interior, which gives us a "Reduced Production Efficiency" penalty- like the Limited Production from Aluminum, but less severe, this hurts our car output and scales with factory size. (In the case of a medium 1 factory we go from about 1000 cars made with Premium Interior to about 850 with Luxury Interior). For now let's assume our Sedan is a 4-seater and see what the wagon can do.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The wagon initially does worse than the sedan in family premium, but I haven't tuned it yet. It does offer a third seat row, but nobody seems to like actually have seats there- including Family, who isn't interested in this car at all because we have a V8 that isn't tuned for fuel efficiency. Incidentally we CAN make multiple engine variants, such as a variation of the V8 for utility purposes.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...try as I might, I can't actually make this wagon perform better than the sedan in basically any category. Looks like premium buyers really don't like sedans. But what if we put the humble Urist MC engine in?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well, it looks like it could be a real rival to the standard Urist- although it sits comparatively up-market of course. However, will it get ruined in engineering?

Our base engineering time is a ridiculous 94 months. Maybe I went a little ham with the new tech- but some of the huge stuff, like monocoque chassis, we basically have to do sooner or later. Also, basically every interior feature is new. In fact many of the mechanical features, such as an automatic transmission, are new too, and having different stuff on the sedan and the wagon does not help. First I can save a few months (although at some competitiveness cost) by ticking chassis quality to -1, but we get to the real issue...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...usually for a premium car, you save on engineering time by tanking the reliability, because they don't care much. Of course, if we want the sedan AND the wagon, that really hurts the wagon. Here's an example with engineering time down to 55 months. But, we might consider dropping the wagon, or at least dropping it for our initial run and re-introducing it later. Notice the wagon's predicted competitiveness has suffered a lot more than the sedan.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Our predicted launch competitiveness is just OK, so cutting down the engineering time even further might be beneficial. Still, this is probably viable if it's the strategy we want to take.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The whole project is predicted to cost 1.4 Billion. This should be possible to pull off, but we will be going all in on it for a while. Also that cost is for a Small engine factory building our V8. If we want a medium factory so we can more easily expand our premium car production it will be more like 1.8 Billion, which will be really touch and go. Either way the bank won't even give us a loan for the full value- but we do have good income from the Urist.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, here's what our pre-production prototype looks like, in Noble Purple:

I didn't have an HSV reference for the paint so I just eyeballed. Also, it gets sparkly flakes, because what better way to say premium in 1960 when this hits market?
Wagon too: it gets dimple dye blue, of course.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sorry for potato quality, this was a laptop episode. I'll upload .car files if we agree on the design.

Meeting Time!

What should we do with the Baron design? Should we keep or drop the wagon? Does it need engineering changes? We could go longer with better reliability and production numbers at release, or even faster.
Names: The model is called the Baron, but we have two trims to name. We could also use a cool name for our V8 engine. Maybe rename our I4 to something like the Urist MC Hauler and call the V8 Urist MC something else?
The Urist can get a standard update regardless. If we make the Baron Wagon, the Urist can probably remain out ultra-budget car and the Baron Wagon can be our mid-market family car.

A couple questions: Regarding bodies whose pages go off the screen, I don't want to screenshot them all, but basically if it goes off the screen you can usually assume it has a van and a truck variant, and you'll be right 90% of the time. You can always specify that you're only interested if it it has a certain option. Also, the Urist transmission has a ridiculous overdrive- if it had the horsepower, it would redline at 140 miles per hour in top gear. Of course, it doesn't have the horsepower, so its top speed is at 50 miles per hour, with the engine running at a very low RPM.
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Aseaheru

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1955: Baron Proposal]
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2020, 07:02:14 am »

 By
Quote
In fact, if we want a car with a convertible AND a wagon (or, at least, four doors)
do you mean a convertible wagon, or convertable or wagon? Because, ah... the '55 2m rounded says hi and so does the '49 2.6m and the one right below it...

 Aint got no preference on Baron nor engine names. Fer the Urist, I think we should still replace it instead of facelift it, and would still prefer the Migrant fer that.

 Speaking of the Migrant, if the '55 2m chassis that goes redonciously offscreen, sure, lets grab that over the '55 2m box. Budget convertibles are a thing, right? :P Also, is rear engine pickups a thing? Might want to start going with "rear wheel engines and drive in all the cheapos!"
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King Zultan

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1955: Baron Proposal]
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2020, 07:38:21 am »

I like the sound of the name Baron Wagon for the wagon and the sedan version can just be called the Baron.

It sounds like it might be time to replace the Urist with the Baron.
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mightymushroom

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1955: Baron Proposal]
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2020, 08:31:49 am »

It sounds like it might be time to replace the Urist with the Baron.

Not what I originally intended but you might be on to something. We're going to unlock access to Archana in 1960, right? The place with the very low land and labor costs? So stretch out the engineering phase until pretty close to that (so that we can keep selling Urists to keep our finances up) with the expectation of building Baron in our existing Fruinia factories (with a small engine factory to do the new V8), and then shifting our budget manufacturing to Archana with the Migrant as soon as it opens up.

Is it possible to start the broad strokes of design work on the Migrant now, if we don't have a specific factory to build it yet?


P.S. You got the Noble Purple darn close by my eye; any variance could be the lighting and/or gloss finish. Officially in colors.txt plump helmets are RGB (128,0,128) which translates to HSV (300,100,50).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 08:48:39 am by mightymushroom »
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