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Author Topic: Idea for psychological realism  (Read 1737 times)

Malroc The Valiant

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Idea for psychological realism
« on: August 28, 2020, 04:34:43 pm »

I think there should be a "therapist" type noble position. Someone who dwarves go to when their long term memories are filled with traumatic experiences. So my understanding is that in the real there are Large T traumas and small t traumas. Some things leave a bigger impression on people and other things tend to build up over time, that is obviously an over simplification, but you get the idea. Back to the game, watching your lover die is a lot different than being caught in the rain, even as a being that truly hates nature. That said small t events can definitely add up to cause severe psychological damage, and depending on the individual a single small t event could cause PTSD and that's valid too (my partner has c-ptsd so I'm not talking out of my ass).

small t trauma would be easier to treat by the "therapist" noble. Dwarves could also meditate on specific memories as well as visiting the "therapist" noble. I think little t trauma memories (getting caught in the rain, seeing a dead body etc. (in the context of a semi feudal fantasy world I'd say seeing a body is little t, depending on the dwarf's personality of course)) should be able to be "forgotten" after meditating on it a bunch or being counseled (allowing a new memory to eventually take its place, good or bad). If the same small t event happens repeatedly (3 times? I have a handful of dwarves with at least three bad rain memories) before being processed by counseling or meditation it could become a Large T memory deleting the other negative rain memories.

I think Large T event memories should be permanent. But meditating on those events or seeking counseling for them should, over time, reduce the stress caused be reliving and remembering these traumas. Dwarves with personalities that would lend themselves to it, (private, stoic, handles stress well, introspection etc.) should be more likely to be able to processes negative memories through mediation, but they should still seek counseling occasionally. Dwarves with a propensity for depression, anxiety or stress should more likely to seek out the "therapist" noble.

I think small t events should still be able to trigger trait changes. I feel like it shouldn't be too hard to keep trait changes when getting rid of memories, because my understanding is trait changes occur often, just through arguments and what not. Id like to have a note indicating the change and perhaps the healed memory, but if there is an issue with computing and memory mechanically for the game I can accept not having a note of the healing process.

All this being said, I still want sad, anxious and, sigh, even rageful dwarves, it adds so much to the game, and its pretty darn realistic, some people just need a little extra help, but they're still valuable members of the fort. I'd just like a better way of dealing with it then waiting till the depressives eventually sink into their final depression, nervous wrecks stumble obliviously till they drop, or I have to seal up a tantruming dwarf to protect the rest. It all, rather tragically, ends in starvation.

I'd be fine if like 15-20 percent if problemed dwarves were lost causes, but as it stand now, the number is way higher. I mean I'm pretty good at keeping people happy at this point, but I remember being new, and it was hell. I think the player still needs to play with dwarven happiness in mind, but it would be nice if some of the problems solved themselves a little easier, at least once the player has a well established fort.

Anyway, enough complaining, I think the memories thing is really cool, and one of the funnest things to build head cannon around. I definitely promote military dwarves based on their traits and life experiences. Can't wait to see how it evolves.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 07:30:14 pm by Malroc The Valiant »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Since the intent is for a lot less than 15-20% of dwarves to be "lost causes", would there be any need to do this once the system bugs are fixed?

Dwarves already (somewhat ineffectively) use the priests and various leaders for stress relief. Working on those mechanics plus maybe involving family and friends seem would seem more fitting than a medieval "therapist".
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Malroc The Valiant

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What bugs need to be fixed? My understanding is there there is a general need for a slight overhaul in how the memory system works. I don't think tarn wants there to be 8 long term memory slots full of thoughts about worn clothing and rain, but those are things that could well accumulate to lead to deeper problems. I've read lots of stuff on the forums where people talk about just replacing the "lesser" memories, but I don't think that's entirely fair, because the build up of a lot of little things can lead to issues still. It makes sense that rain and things like worn clothing bother a dwarf, they're mountain creatures of avarice. But by the time a dwarfs wife dies or first child is born I don't want their memories filled with all those little things.

And of course that an exaggeration, I have some dwarves with interesting life events, but I feel like the idea is for those little descriptions to tell more of a story than they do currently.

I'm by no means hung up in the therapist idea itself, a designated fort priest or something more dwarfy, or simply processing memories with friends and family. I just think dwarves should be able to work through their trauma, as well as manage stress.

Most of the issues I have could probably be fixed pretty easily by making leather cloaks and hoods water proof, and making dwarves take off stuff like mittens and caps before they rot. But I think it would add an element of realism and help to spice those life event lists up a bit.

I get a lot of people whine about the rain stuff, I'm not trying to add to that or anything. But my understanding is that there is still some work to be done to the memory mechanics, and this is my suggestion. Not anything I think will or needs to be implemented soon, just thoughts for the future. I like the idea of making dwarven psychology realistic.
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SixOfSpades

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What bugs need to be fixed?
Whether you call it a bug or an oversight is up to you, but I for one stopped playing because of one very critical fact: Dwarves do not (yet) want the things that they need. If a dwarf has (or will have) a psychological need for something, they will make no attempt to attain that thing, no matter how easy it might be, no matter if they will literally go insane & die without it. A dwarf that feels lonely for not having talked with her friends is not yet coded to desire to seek the company of her friends. A dwarf wearing tattered clothing has no wish to remove his rags & replace them with brand-new garb. I had a dwarf who was angry about not having prayed to his god for a while, so I disabled all his labors so he'd have plenty of free time. He went to the temple--and meditated. He wasn't coded to want to pray, even though he needed to, so all he did was meditate instead, slowly growing more & more angry about being "denied" a chance to commune with his god. It ruined the immersion for me.
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Malroc The Valiant

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Ah, yeah that would explain why dwarves often refuse to fulfill their needs even when I have everything they could ask for. I definitely think that would help with some of my dwarven happiness, it does bother the shit out of me when some one has friends or family but wont go seek them out. I thought I read somewhere that the dwarves are way more stressed out by memories than needs currently. Is that true?

Shonai_Dweller, you seem pretty in the know, when do you think Tarn will get around to fixing the dwarves not wanting to fulfill needs thing?
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Azerty

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I don't think the pre-1400 times had enough clinical psychology to count, but religious figures, relatives and friends should play a higher role at reducing stress.
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"Just tell me about the bits with the forest-defending part, the sociopath part is pretty normal dwarf behavior."

Malroc The Valiant

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Yeah that's fair. But I've never really seen fantasy as  being an accurate portrayal of, like, the medieval era or anything, in my mind its kind of using a fantastical romanticized aesthetic of that time period to suss out contemporary themes and ideas.

When I say I like realistic fantasy I'm saying I like sociological stories that unfold in a way that is believable. That takes into consideration in world geopolitics and the cultural make up of different peoples, and reflects real world social systems on the page or screen. I don't really look for historical accuracy. I think dwarf fortress does a good job at that and it'll only get better.

But yeah some one called a fort therapist would be a bit too on the nose, a priest that acts as an intermediary between the general pantheon and a dwarven fort could to quite nicely. Or just talking to their friends, the priest of their religion or guild master.

The main thing I want is for dwarves to be able to process trauma beyond just coping with stress, I don't really care how exactly it happens. Both for the sake of the player and the dwarf.
It will be possible for dwarves to work through their memories, and those little list of life event will be a bit more interesting.
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Bumber

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Priests reducing stress is already a thing.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Shonai_Dweller

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Priests reducing stress is already a thing.
Yeah, this whole suggestion is already part of the game. Once the stress system is balanced better there's no need to do any of this.
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Malroc The Valiant

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I'm specifically talking about processing trauma and not coping with stress. Those are different things. I'm not saying it's something the game needs, I'm saying it would add to the psychological realism of the dwarves. My understanding is that's part of the point. I should have made it more clear in my subject header that my suggestion was more specifically about a more realistic implementation of trauma that would also help to solve some current stress issues.

Are you saying there is already a way to processes through trauma, a trauma system that differentiates Large T and small t traumas that allows for the build up of small t traumas to cause trauma induced stress on par with Large T traumas? Again, my main point is that I think trauma should be worked through, not a suggestion on how to cope with stress. Does the amount stress induced by traumatic memories go down over time naturally, without all the extra mechanics I'm suggesting? I see dwarves cancel jobs because they're horrified and I look at their thought description and it say experiencing or reliving trauma does this happen less over time naturally?
 
I guess if you work out things like dwarves fulfilling needs on their own, avoiding rain, and taking off worn clothing it would have a similar effect on those life event lists. That would reduce the occurrence of what I'd consider to be less significant life events, allowing more room for other stuff.

I'm sure Tarn has a great solution lined up for how to deal with stress better, and the few priests I've had in my last couple forts did a pretty good job cheering up the dwarves who were members of their religions. And Like I said in my OP I manage the stress of my dwarves pretty well already, so It's not like I'm complaining about the game being unplayable. I'm just suggesting that it would be cool if there was a deeper trauma and recovery system someday in the games long long development future. I'm not even saying it is be something I'd like to see in the next 5 or 10 years. My understanding is we'll probably get another 15 years or so out of development on dwarf fortress. I'd imagine that Tarn and Zach only want to make the game deeper and more life like as time goes on, and a more flushed out trauma system is my suggestion for them. I certainly want my villainous agents, legions of deep dwarves, living gods dynamic economy and the map rewrite waayyy before I want anything like more realistic psychology.

It's so fascinating. I can't tell if I haven't been making my point clearly enough, or if people really don't get the difference between stress management and processing trauma. Trauma is something that lots, if not most people experience, not just people with PTSD. Trauma can look like a lot of different things. If all you're doing to deal with your traumatic memories is coping with the stress, you're probably not living your best life. Cough cough, taking about the dwarves of course.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Maybe retitle your suggestion? I imagine most of us mistook this for a proposed solution to stress imbalance because you called it a proposed solution to stress imbalance.

So, it's something new for added realism to Dwarven psychology? Ok. That could be good. Something for after Tarn fixes the stress system of course.  :)
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Malroc The Valiant

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You're right, you're right. I guess I engaged in a bit of click bait, I thought a stress solution would get more attention than an idea for more realistic psychology. All my redditing and online media consumption is taking its toll on me. In my defense I think it would help with some current issues with the stress mechanics, but I'm sure there is a solution already in the works that makes more sense for where the game is currently at in development. I should've framed it better, I'll do that now.
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Putnam

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What bugs need to be fixed?
Whether you call it a bug or an oversight is up to you, but I for one stopped playing because of one very critical fact: Dwarves do not (yet) want the things that they need. If a dwarf has (or will have) a psychological need for something, they will make no attempt to attain that thing, no matter how easy it might be, no matter if they will literally go insane & die without it. A dwarf that feels lonely for not having talked with her friends is not yet coded to desire to seek the company of her friends. A dwarf wearing tattered clothing has no wish to remove his rags & replace them with brand-new garb. I had a dwarf who was angry about not having prayed to his god for a while, so I disabled all his labors so he'd have plenty of free time. He went to the temple--and meditated. He wasn't coded to want to pray, even though he needed to, so all he did was meditate instead, slowly growing more & more angry about being "denied" a chance to commune with his god. It ruined the immersion for me.

this still doesn't really cause much stress, just distraction, which is only barely related

SixOfSpades

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this still doesn't really cause much stress, just distraction, which is only barely related
Well, whatever it was, it made him angry enough to kick the outpost liaison in the face, killing her.
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Putnam

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Re: Idea for psychological realism
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2020, 12:05:44 am »

Probably the ton of other recognized causes of stress, primary among which include bad memories being "locked in" and impossible to dislodge, as well as some dwarven personalities being basically impossible to save. Simply put: if needs are the major problem, why aren't all of your dwarves tantruming each other to death, since this problem affects all of them equally?
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