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Author Topic: How to make Goblins kill each other more?  (Read 1533 times)

VABritto

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How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« on: September 26, 2020, 05:23:22 pm »

Hey there,

I was wondering if you guys knew if this was possible. I know that culturally Goblins kill each other. They assassinate one another with some degree of regularity. But that never offsets their immense fertility. What I wanted to know is if it was possible to actually control the murder ratio in Goblin society and crank it up high enough for their population to actually take a hit and them not actually living as immortals as  much. I am not here interested in just putting their population down, I truly am interested in lowering their population in this specific manner, because I think it would be cool. As in, they are immortal but they actually don't usually live that long in practice because of how violent their society is. Then when you see a really ancient Goblin you actually respect the guy's mettle.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 02:54:53 am »

Ethics KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER. Just change from PERSONAL_MATTER to ACCEPTABLE or REQUIRED.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 03:11:16 am »

You can also try increasing their HATE_PROPENSITY and VIOLENT personality traits.  However, it is unlikely that you will be able to make them murdery enough to actually offset their breeding rate

VABritto

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2020, 07:32:27 am »

Thanks for the answers, guys! Even if I can't offset their breeding rate in this manner it still seems like it'll make Legends Mode more interesting. I think I'll change KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER to acceptable first and also remove the treason taboo and put it a bit lower (so it isn't THAT frequent but also happens) just to see what interesting reactions it brings. I'll write here the results of my experiments. Then I will increase the other attributes you mentioned and see just how murder hobo they can get. Then I'll set a balance that seems nice to me.
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delphonso

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2020, 08:39:43 am »

PTW results.

Sounds pretty cool even if it's just for more Legends stories.

VABritto

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2020, 03:56:31 pm »

FIRST EXPERIMENT

I think this experiment was very successful and I did not need to do much to have it mostly where I wanted it. Just by doing the first thing I wanted to try ([ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:ACCEPTABLE] [ETHIC:TREASON:PUNISH_EXILE]) already by itself changed Goblinkind immensely. As of now, almost no Goblin lives to be hundreds of years old. Only one Goblin master (a demon in this case) that I have seen died by murder. His name was Figul Luridcancer the Larval, a demon of Blight and Death. He was murdered by a Goblin named Zom Palepoisons in 362. Zom in turn was murderd by the Goblin Ngokang Laudedterrors in 384 (He was 295 years old at the time). Ngokang was then stricken down (at the age of 479) by a Goblin werebeast named Zolak Baitlie the Fair Incineration who is alive to this day (having lived so far a whopping 854 years). The oldest named Goblin alive in this world isn't technically alive as conventional, he's the necromancer Goblin Ngerxung Profaneseal. He was murdered by the Goblin Atu Nightmarebalances in the year 6 and was later revived in 315. He's "alive" to this day. The Goblin Atu Nightmarebalances on the other hand was devoured by a leopard in the year 98 so nothing interesting there. The oldest actually continuously living Goblin known to still be alived is Estrur Spiderysafe, who has been alive from -259 to the present, an incredible 1309 years.

These are all rather unusual Goblins in this world. We have some Goblins around 800/900 years old, but they are rare. Most Goblins from what I saw tend to live fairly normal lifespans. Most either are struck down or murdered. Let's look at the family tree of Ngerxung Profaneseal for example, remembering that although Ngerxung is "alive" he technically was murdered in the year 6:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most  of these Goblins had children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, but that would be a lot to write down. I think this gives you a good overview of how murder and killings are distributed and the average age of your average goblin. I will later try to increase the acceptability of Treason (I think I will make it acceptable, just to go full in) and see how that goes.
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Conor891

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2020, 01:59:13 am »

The population explosion in goblins is directly caused by the [NO_EAT] tag goblins have in creature_standard and nothing else. Removing this will fix the problem with goblin overpopulation completely.

From my observations with legends viewer this is caused by the population of a site being calculated in part by the amount of livestock at the site that can support its population, and more livestock are added in return to support the existing site population. The livestock population stays in check depending on the size of the livestock at the site in relation to the amount of that livestock the entity races will eat. A site that stores more water buffalo will tend to have a higher population than one that stores more dogs or rabbits. Note that this applies to any livestock creature, even semi sentient ones like trolls.

This creates a world gen feedback loop with goblins since the sites they have obtain beak dogs and trolls in the tens of thousands instead of the few hundred to a thousand in normal sites. The game checks to see that the amount of livestock in goblin sites is sustained and then adds more goblins because of it, and then in return adds more trolls and beak dogs despite goblins not needing a livestock to support themselves. The population of goblins livestock and the goblins will never reduce and only grow since the goblins don't eat them in world gen.

This also means that adding a [NO_EAT] tag to any creature in world gen will cause their population to explode in the same way. This seems to cause crashes a lot mainly when they are added to humans and dwarves. Elven sites become particularly vicious in worldgen due to the thousands of savage giant variations of animals they tend to have.

You can also use this mechanic to fine tune entity populations to a certain degree, depending on the size you make an entity's livestock and the amount of it that can be bred. Making chickens the size of dragons will cause humans and dwarves to be more populated. Reducing them to half that size will tune them to be a bit less populous.

As far as I'm aware creature RAWs alone can be completely reverted after world gen so you probably don't even need to live in a world with dragon sized chickens to accomplish this. The only thing with this though is that site invaders are pretty vulnerable to big livestock. This is why the numbers of megabeast and demon rulers are often greatly reduced by elephants and especially giant elephants killing them when they attack elven sites or when elven sites attack them. So you might end up having all of your dragons killed off by giant chickens in this case.


« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 02:03:46 am by Conor891 »
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VABritto

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 02:09:46 am »

Oh I know. I solved the population problem before starting this thread precisely by making the goblins have to eat. I started this thread, as I say in the OP, because I wanted to see if this could also be done specifically by making the goblins more prone to murder and because I wanted to see how such a goblin society would look like.
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Eric Blank

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2020, 02:45:56 pm »

I had no idea livestock size had anything to do with population size. That would be why my ice giant civ with their giant mammoths is so prolific...
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Asin

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Re: How to make Goblins kill each other more?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2020, 07:17:19 pm »

The population explosion in goblins is directly caused by the [NO_EAT] tag goblins have in creature_standard and nothing else. Removing this will fix the problem with goblin overpopulation completely.

From my observations with legends viewer this is caused by the population of a site being calculated in part by the amount of livestock at the site that can support its population, and more livestock are added in return to support the existing site population. The livestock population stays in check depending on the size of the livestock at the site in relation to the amount of that livestock the entity races will eat. A site that stores more water buffalo will tend to have a higher population than one that stores more dogs or rabbits. Note that this applies to any livestock creature, even semi sentient ones like trolls.

This creates a world gen feedback loop with goblins since the sites they have obtain beak dogs and trolls in the tens of thousands instead of the few hundred to a thousand in normal sites. The game checks to see that the amount of livestock in goblin sites is sustained and then adds more goblins because of it, and then in return adds more trolls and beak dogs despite goblins not needing a livestock to support themselves. The population of goblins livestock and the goblins will never reduce and only grow since the goblins don't eat them in world gen.

This also means that adding a [NO_EAT] tag to any creature in world gen will cause their population to explode in the same way. This seems to cause crashes a lot mainly when they are added to humans and dwarves. Elven sites become particularly vicious in worldgen due to the thousands of savage giant variations of animals they tend to have.

You can also use this mechanic to fine tune entity populations to a certain degree, depending on the size you make an entity's livestock and the amount of it that can be bred. Making chickens the size of dragons will cause humans and dwarves to be more populated. Reducing them to half that size will tune them to be a bit less populous.

As far as I'm aware creature RAWs alone can be completely reverted after world gen so you probably don't even need to live in a world with dragon sized chickens to accomplish this. The only thing with this though is that site invaders are pretty vulnerable to big livestock. This is why the numbers of megabeast and demon rulers are often greatly reduced by elephants and especially giant elephants killing them when they attack elven sites or when elven sites attack them. So you might end up having all of your dragons killed off by giant chickens in this case.

Makes sense. The bigger the animal, the more meat it has to sustain a population with.