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[Fikilili]

The theological aspect of DF is kind of all over the place. Given the proc-gen nature of the game and its setting, religion could, and should, take a bigger part in the history of the generated worlds. Tarn has once spoken about the ubiquitous aspect of generated world, and how the player could be given the liberty of either having something more down-to-earth, or generating a land even the Wizard of Oz could be in awe in front of its bizarre approach. With this in mind, we could imagine that Religion will affected by this choice, or maybe be a completely different beast.
In this thread, I'll explore how religion could be upgraded, and bring much needed !FUN! into the game.


ANCHORED IN REALITY, MADE REAL BY FAITH

Needless to say, since Fantasy was popularized, we've seent the theme of religion being tackled in many different ways. Either openly mocked and pointed at, criticized or being the subject of much interesting philosophical debates, etc. Depending on the book, religion can be either "true" and every god mentionned exist, or religion can be just a fabric of mankind's imagination, or be left ubiquitous as unexplained events are blamed on forces or gods that the characters can't fully understand or comprehend.
For Dwarf Fortress, some options could be given to the player regarding this. As you can see below, the choice go from one extreme to another:

• Religion is not real and there is no god.
• While religion is not real, magic is, and some powerful wizards could be percieved as gods. (if magic is tied to religion)
• Gods do not exist, but historical figures can rise as such.
• One religion is real, but not the others.
• All religions are real, but not every god is equal.
• Gods exists, but the world has yet to discover them.
• Gods are forces, personified by people's religions, but none of them are exact.
• Forces and beings of divine powers rule the universe, but their minds and goals are simply beyond the people's comprehension.

1. Is pretty self explanatory. In that case, supernatural beings cannot really exist. As in Vampires would be a whole seperate race, Necromancers can't come to be, and neither do Mummies, Boogymen, Lycantrophs, etc. And maybe, to some extent, neither can the HFS, if tied to religion. A creature can still become the object of a cult, though.

2. Same as first one, but magic exists. Curses and other magical tomfoolery is possible, but gods never really intervene (because they do not exist).

3. In this case, historical figures may be praised, or seen as gods for various reasons. Either because of the influence they had over the world and its history, because of his or her philosophy, or because of his phenomenal powers.

4. In this scenario, one religion is correct. But that doesn't mean everyone gets to accept that. Some civilisations may praise the correct god, but some others may still believe in something else. In which case, they could be refer to as pagans. Whether or not they all accept this is another question.

5. Here goes the magic tomfoolery again. Now, if every god is real, you can't really expect everything to naturally make sense. It would be like Appollo and Ra fighting to figure out who really is the god of the sun, or even YHWH and Izanagi throwing hisfits on who's the real creator. That would be completely ridiculous. So here's a few suggestions regarding the problem:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• The Power of the Gods and their influence over the world depend on how many believers they have. Which creates a natural hierarchy. Depending on the diaspora of their believers and where they live, they may have an influence on the kingdom/nation. If clashing with other gods, the god with the most believers wins. Or has more influence over the countryside. A "Creator" God maybe powerful in theory, if he's got less followers than the God of Wine and Purity, he isn't worth anything.
• Restrict certain types of God. Depending on what they're attached to, or what their supposed powers are, some gods may be more powerful than others. To fix this issue, the game could make sure than certain gods do not come to existence. Such as creation gods, gods of time or space, or immortal, uncomprehensible gods.
• Allow only man-made gods. That means that only former historical figures who became gods are allowed. They may become omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign and immortal, they may not be completely immutable. Which means that their powers would be equal to a legendary wizard, but nothing too exciting. They still can die in combat. Which basically goes back to Option 3.
• Same as above, but not with man-made gods. They're just above legendary wizards, and they can suffer a permanent death. Only a god of Necromancy may bring them back to life.
• Just as Option 7 and 8, Gods may be just forces. But each force has some kind of intelligence. Depending on when and where they want to intervene, they may embrace the role of a local god. Plain and simple.

Phew, that was a long tangent.

6. In this case, some gods exists, but they do not belong to any particular religion. It would be something like Ra chilling with Odin while they spit on Poseidon, all the while Jupiter is wondering where the hell is his son Heracles. Basically, some gods may have been discovered, assigned to a religion, and some others not. This option is the equivalent of Facebook's "It's complicated" relationship setting. There's no clear way to tell who's real and who's not. Or even if a certain god exist. The only way to find out is to either plunge in the terrifying depths of the raws, or through Legends mode.
Now, you may ask what kinda god could exist while nobody's aware of him/her/it? Well, depending on how Gods are formed or even organized, some gods may come to fruition out of nowhere, or being born from the thoughts and fears of dwarves/humans/elves/goblins/etc. For example, if anger is seen as a bad thing among all civs, they may not create a religion where a god of anger exists. But, unconcsiously, they may have created a god of anger, and even gods for other emotions aswell. Which means that these gods could influence the world in many ways, but the occurances of their miracles could be left unexplained.

7. Forces, in general, manifest in strange and unexplainable ways. They represent certain sphere, englobing other spheres, but never once do they show any particular attachment to a specific religion. Civilisations may attempt to explain their decisions and even give them names, much to no avail. Forces may manifest as certain gods, but probably never (or) will assume their role as said gods.

8. In this case, Forces are forces in the purest form. Luck, Events, Probabilities, Causality, the Unexpected, the Expected, etc. Forces do not think, they create, they do things. Magical oddities who do as they wish, for it is only in their nature to do so.


BARELY BORN OR ALREADY THERE?

One does not simply say a god exist, something must have brought him to be. To some, people create gods, to others, gods created us. Which is true? There's no telling. But there certainly could be one in DF. Coming along with Creation Myths could be the tale of how the Gods either created the world, or were created. So here's how could they come to be;

• In the case gods are forces, they may eventually embrace a certain profile of god. Or grow a personality as time goes, like dwarven children, in some way.
• Gods only exists if people believe in them.
• Gods were already there and do not need faith to exist.
• Historical reach a certain level of God hood and be consider as such.

1. This joins the Option 7 and 8 of our previous section. There could be a small chance that forces grow a certain personality, and come out as specific gods. Whether they create their own original identity or are influence by existing religions is to be determined.

2. This takes the "Power level according to faith" concept to a whole new level. If people stop believing in certain gods, they will cease to exist. So it is in their best interest to keep their faith up. This could cause the Gods to change their minds on certain things or make history-changing decisions.

3. This one is pretty self-explanatory.

4. Likewise. See above in the first section.



I'll leave you with that. I'll continue later with Divine realms and interventions later.

[Fikilili]

I think this is the moment when things are gonna get way too vague. I know I'm very bad at suggesting stuff, cuz I'm not particularly good at explaining how could such things can be implemented in the game. The code, the raws and such... I'm not a programming god, sadly. Though sometimes I wish I was. I still think these could be very interesting to mess with, but people are going to complain, I know that. The entire balance of the game is at stake.

DIVINE REALMS

As of now, the Underworld is pretty much hell. Demons and Angels work hand in hand to protect the names of Demon Lords. And Gods rarely even intervene. Not that they should do more often, but lets see how proc-gen could affect all of that.
Now, what I define as a "Divine realm" is a place, or a world, or a dimension, tied to religious mythos. These realms, unlike the generated world, serve a specific purpose. Either they are the house of the gods, the place where the dead go to rest, serve as a purgatory or temple, or some other myth-related tradition or event. Which means that these worlds would only exist if Gods are real and one specific creation-myth is correct. But then again, it all depends on how religion is handled.
If religious figures and activities are tied to faith, then you can imagine that if people stop believing in certain divine realms, they might aswell stop existing.

Now the problem is, that if the Underworld is considered to be a divine realm, then if people stop believing in it, hitting rock bottom (literally) would lead to absolute nothingness. Right? Well, besides the technical complications of incorporating new biomes and cavern types into the game, it should be possible, in some way, that divine (or magical) realms be accessible by other means. What means, though?
Well depending on how those realms would interact with the world, there could be multiple possibilities. Such as;

- The realm isn't attached to the world directly and can be accessed by a portal. These portals could be find in Dark Fortresses or Vaults, guarded by Goblins or Night Creatures.
- The realm is attached to the generated world. Much like Mount Olympus and the Styx in Greek Mythology. Which means that certain places could be attached to Creation Myths.
- The realm can't be accessed. In which case there is no need to generate it.

To put it simply, the Underworld may be extremely different. Perhaps something à la Jules Verne could be done and ancient creatures of old could be discovered in this new underworld.
As for anything like the Limbo, Hell, Heaven and the likes, they could be generated in very peculiar ways.

Theses realms are either smaller than the generated world, because of the purpose they have, and could be just as big. They have different properties and only certain beings can live in there. Realms could be attached to spheres or concepts. Depending on how the gods handle anything, certain realms could be use as a vector for various different things.
For example; let's say there was a realm where the souls of the dead go to be reincarnated, cleansed from their sins, and made anew. If the Myths define a place where a divinity or some spirits do these sorts of cleansings, then the realm, if accessible, may only be filled with some buildings, some strange trees and fruits, and mysterious contructions where we can see the divinities at work. They could be described in the following manner;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is the Chamber of the damned, an eerie place where the souls of the dead come to be reincarnated. It is told to be a beautiful garden where Aashun Baradek, dwarven god, Fishir Zaned, elven god, Nul, elven goddess, Bashir and his children, human deities, and Oshoko, goblin god, all gather to repurpose the lives of the dead, and decide into what shall they be reincarnated.
The realm is compromised of different temples and houses, where the divinities live, and also where they partake in other activities. Most notably the Temple of Dwights, where the undead are sent back to Oshib Dasheb. There can also be found the Joy of Joys, an autel where the offerings of the divinities' believers are to be found. Etc.

Depending on the legends surround this realm, or the mythological history, there could found some Legendary artefacts and such.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a mess, I cant bring myself to finish any of that. My life and mind is a mess, I'm so tired

[Azerty]

Divine realms looks like a good idea to expend vaults.

BEsides of physical means, we could also have mental means, such as meditation, prayer or taking entheogens. For exemple, a priest might injest some product and then his mind would be in a divine realm related to his religion; we could see the most experimented priest being more likely to be able to communicate with their deities.

Another exemple might be a divine realm related to crafts being able to send spirits causing strange moods. To expend onn this, realms whose spheres are related to scholarship might cause some scholars to become inspirated and make enormous strides in intellectual work.

[Draegur]

I searched specifically to see if this subject is being discussed, and I am delighted to find that it is.

What I would like to contribute to considerations is the fact that there are some insights that can be gained from real life regarding how religion evolves.

https://youtu.be/RIfB1LI79OQ

Religion is not as random as perhaps previously thought.

There is a pattern, perhaps even a neurogenic one, to the way that sapient beings prioritize their observations of their world, project meaning and agency into random happenstance, and develop lasting habits that pass on for generations as a result.

With humans in particular, the video I've linked above seems to indicate that we have a predisposition to favor the sky, the air, the wind, with special significance. We have traditions dating back as long as writing (writings which indicate that these concepts are even older that said writings themselves) that our ancestors regarded BREATH with LIFE - for, when one dies, one no longer breathes; and if one is deprived of breath, one dies. We derived the term "spirits" as a moniker for distilled alcoholic beverages because our forebears witnessed the way alcohol vapor rose from them, or naturally occurring carbonation would produce bubbles.

The abrahamic godhead was itself derived from this basis: yah-weh is an onomatopoeic rendering of the sound of breathing in and out.

Volcanic activity was though to be the breathing of the earth, and the "pillar of fire by night, column of smoke by day" visions that 'led' the hebrews during the mosaic period would be quite tidily explained as the pyroclastic plume of a volcano, glowing incandescent in the dark, but billowing and opaque in the light.

Perhaps the other sapient races of the dwarf fortress cosmology could regard other natural forces the same way humans treat air?

What if goblins saw patterns in, and took inspiration from, the dark? the safe place to hide and skulk.

It seems all too natural that dwarves would find comfort in the earth.

Elves, meanwhile, already seem to worship the trees. plants and growth seem to be their vocation.

It would make sense if the divine presences of a given dwarf fortress world were first the wild and raw forces of nature inspiring awe in minds complex enough to observe and derive abstraction upon them - and then, the concepts would mutate from there, driven by geographic, meteorological, social, logistical, economic, and political factors.

I suspect there may be some kind of probablistic or mathematical underpinning to the way these things develop over eons and generations. The fertile environs provided by the dwarf fortress simulation are a prime testbed to see what might come of it over several thousand years.

I speak from FIRST PRINCIPLES, of the UNDERLYING MECHANICS which govern how religious ideations manifest in REAL LIFE!

Now, that said, regarding OP's initial explorations,

Whether or not there may be gods is not actually as relevant as the fact that religion, as a behavior, exists and carries out functions that are useful to the survival of a community. Not only does it coordinate and unite a population to a common goal, but it also alleviates the weight of questions for which a society may not be equipped, whether in lieu of technology, time, or other resources, to answer. It provides a quick 'bootloader'/wrapper for basic helpful survival behaviors like altruism or other norms of Social Contract. It's a "service pack" for the operating system of a newborn mind, carrying with it the memetic patches of prior generations to instill mostly benign, very occasionally maladaptive, but often enough even beneficial HABITS.

I am rather a fan of the Terry Pratchett "Small Gods" approach whereby a deity's palpability is directly proportional to quantity of faithful believers and the quality of their faith - and, mixed in, another factor that comes from the nature of the world itself: How MAGICAL is the world? How magical are the REGIONS of the world? A way of gaging how susceptible reality is, in a given realm, or even in specific regions of a realm, to the compounded suggestion of many expectant sapient observers?

Natural Force Observed by Agents x Agent Piety x Agent Population x Magical Coefficient x Agent Expectations (based on geography, weather, resources, economy, sociopolitical circumstance cumulative over generations) = The Anatomy of Divinity

[YK_81]

I think there need to be way more enumerated variables for these religions, and more association with spheres (as it seems the magic system to be added in the myth and magic update will have a large relationship with spheres.) Examples could include spheres being interpreted as gods themselves, or many gods being interpreted as spheres. Although I love this idea, especially the concept of certain gods or all gods being real or false, or the abilities of gods changing and being different to those believed by dwarves. I think it'd be funny if some gods are treated as a truly sentient being, and if one of their traits is their patience, and they could get annoyed if you ask for too much too often. But seriously, I'm having a brain erection about this, I'm probably going to fail out of school because I can't stop coming up with ideas.

[DwarfStar]

I personally like the concept of creatures gaining so much power that they become gods. That could be a very hard goal to achieve in adventure mode.

I’m trying to imagine how this could affect the game. In fortress mode, religions could have sphere-related material/object/creature preferences, which would affect the preferences of the worshippers of that religion. Maybe also magnifying the effect of item preferences, so that those citizens might prefer a cinnabar statue in their temple rather than gold, for the purposes of room value also. Also possibly causing more negative thoughts if an artifact of that material were lost. Objects preferred by a religion could be important to successfully practicing that religion, like maybe a nickel goblet for a ritual.

It would be interesting if the religious preferences could affect the types of things the dwarves can make. Like, a religion could prevent the use of some material like non-grown wood does for elves. But that might be too hard for the player to manage. For that specific example the dwarves would need to learn to make “grown wood”.

Maybe dwarves of one religion would be happy to consider members of another religion as non-sentient, for the purposes of butchering and negative thoughts about corpses.

[YK_81]

I could envision some interesting side effects like civilization A worshipping a god representing a certain sphere falling out of favor to civilization B, who then dislike other civilizations who worship gods with those spheres.