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Author Topic: [SPOILERS] New biomes for HFS  (Read 2319 times)

JAL28

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Re: [SPOILERS] New biomes for HFS
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2021, 12:55:53 am »

I’m pretty sure the fact that demons are butcherable is less of a logic loophole thing but more of a “reward” or sorts for beating hell. The game’s just like “hey, you slaughtered all these demons, have a couple thousand meat units and colourful feathers and bodies for your stupid dwarf tricks” thing. In a way, HFS doesn’t give much of anything useful, except for the candy which means that it isn’t a thing that’s very attractive, except for the fact that candy is great and all.

HFS should really have more into it than just candy, because even candy itself isn’t worth that much compared to the work you have to go through to neutralize the demons. The flora and biomes aren’t just to make the HFS more lively, it’s to make it more attractive as an end-game target. You get tons of !!FUN!!, tons of sweet rewards like expensive wine(maybe more but I am not really sure right now), making it attractive for players to spend the effort to prepare for the breach rather than just challenging HFS because “I’m bored and beating Hell will make game fun”, which is what it currently is. Just an insanely hard challenge with a few candies as a prize.
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towerator

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Re: [SPOILERS] New biomes for HFS
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2021, 12:33:03 pm »

HFS should really have more into it than just candy, because even candy itself isn’t worth that much compared to the work you have to go through to neutralize the demons. The flora and biomes aren’t just to make the HFS more lively, it’s to make it more attractive as an end-game target. You get tons of !!FUN!!, tons of sweet rewards like expensive wine(maybe more but I am not really sure right now), making it attractive for players to spend the effort to prepare for the breach rather than just challenging HFS because “I’m bored and beating Hell will make game fun”, which is what it currently is. Just an insanely hard challenge with a few candies as a prize.

To be fair, I know talking about DF as a "game" is a bit taboo on the forums, but to me the HFS is basically there to be "that unbeatable thing you unleash when you want to go out in style". We're talking things like Stellaris' end of the cycle or Terraria's Dungeon Guardian. Of course, "Lord British Postulate" is a trope for a reason, and people can and will find a way to beat it. But to go back to these example, they aren't really rewarded (or at least not in a way that helps for later gameplay). Hence why I'd be in the "Plants are useable but bad stuff happens". The player defeated !!FUN!!, they shall obtain the way to make even more !!FUN!!. Besides, eating a plant that's over 60% pure evil can't be good for your health.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: [SPOILERS] New biomes for HFS
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2021, 01:47:32 pm »

If you want to talk about the HFS in game terms, the HFS was always meant to be a game over.  (I would say it's a punishment for being too greedy, but that implies that you're going against the intended design or you're meant to learn a lesson because of it, and this is supposed to be how your fort ends.)  The original, 2d version of the game would just instantly kill all your dwarves if you pulled too much cotton candy.  This was because the original conceit of the game was for you to make your own fort, have it mysteriously be destroyed, then make an adventurer and explore its ruins.  This is largely why there is that tagline "Losing is Fun", the fortress is supposed to crumble to outside invasions (as opposed to the real killer of forts, FPS decay and/or deciding to play something else for a while).

Adventurer mode was ignored for many, many years, though, fortress mode was basically seen as the Dwarf Fortress, and players didn't like arbitrary game overs, so with 3d came the ability to have a chance to survive, although you were still meant to die.

Getting stupid amounts of meat isn't a deliberate reward, it's just the procedurally-generated consequence of Toady having made it fairly likely that a decent proportion of clowns are made of meat, and meat is edible in DF.  This happens to be something you can benefit from, but it wasn't an intentional consequence, as you were never intended to win at all.  I'm sure if there was a deliberate reward, it would be more like gaining slabs from defeating the guardians of vaults.  I mean, the more tangible reward for defeating the HFS is being able to suck up all the rest of the cotton candy in relative peace.

Likewise, consider that the HFS is made of a material you cannot use in any way other than digging unless you're using a bug (which itself implies the "you aren't supposed to use this").  The HFS is pretty specifically designed to be as unrewarding as possible to underline the pseudo-punishment nature of it.

That said, if I'm recalling the older versions of DF for you whippersnappers that were knee-high to a grasshopper back in the golden days of less features and more game-breaking bugs, there were three kinds, and each had their own little quirks to their big top.  Hoppy clowns had swamps in their circus ring, with swamp vermin like turtles and blood gnats.  Wiggly clowns had "yellow filth" and "brown filth" (yes, that's biological waste in DF), engravings of "depraved acts", and lots of prisoners to apply their "corrupt intentions" (which some dwarves admire) towards.  Fire-eaters have magma pools, ashes, and charcoal.

This all, at the least, implies the intention to have some sort of unique flavor to each of the clowns and have their particular rings of the circus reflect them, but it probably proved too much effort when Toady went and added in procedural clowns with Mr. Potatohead parts.  The swamps in the HFS that have evil biome vermin are probably the most interesting (you know, once you get "corrupt intentions" out of your system), as it definitely implies that normal life like turtles can at least hypothetically live in the HFS (provided they aren't being spawned infinitely just to die horrible deaths being swallowed alive for fun), and it's more like a super-evil biome.  It definitely supports the claim that not everything in the HFS needs to be poisonous, at least.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: [SPOILERS] New biomes for HFS
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2021, 02:08:54 pm »

Even if you conquer the HFS and walled up a nice chunk of territory through sheer luck that the clowns in your world can't naturally fly and careful preparation, you're simply delaying the inevitable of pushing your fortress's expansion to extremes. 2d "your fort just dies" seems to be a overliteralization of that concept because for the features, you've actually run the course of what the game has to offer theres nowhere to expand.

Wait until there is planar travel, are you really going to open a world-ending ancient portal to a bizzare dimension to skin some pink-things younglings into a fancy leather hat and risk the unforseen wrath. Then there's also mythological features of overliterally presented living gods with very little self restraint in smiting mortals, annoying them tower of babylon style by building too high to commence the heavenly boss battle (in the end the clown meet & greet is a very gamey boss battle, usually for most forts it'd end just there)
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DogsRNice

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Re: [SPOILERS] New biomes for HFS
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2021, 12:51:17 pm »

There always seems to be an abundance of snow demons as well so a biome with snow and ice plants and trees would be fitting

Perhaps in universe this could also be the origin of nether caps
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