Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 20

Author Topic: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, Spring, 1896, Revision&Refit Phase.  (Read 17700 times)

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2021, 11:59:12 pm »

They're never irrelevant and additional insight can always flip the consensus on its head.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Sketchykeeps

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2021, 12:03:20 am »

I see your point.

Anyway, we’ve got the build capacity and budget that we don’t need monitors. Generally the consensus is that the two ships would be a small pre-dread and a protected cruiser for general use

Edit: Also, looking to get the tech rolls in first so we can integrate them into the ship designs
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 12:10:06 am by Sketchykeeps »
Logged

UristMcRiley

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2021, 12:49:13 am »

I worry about a early investment into a pre dreadnought,  it certainly provides some advantages in a strategic sense it is something our enemies cant ignore but it is also in a manner a strategic handicap to us a pre dreadnought would be a massive investment of resources that we would have to carefully protect in order to get the best use out of. On a tactical level a pre dreadnought could likely devastate any enemy formations and even most shore positions however a enemy pre dreadnought would pose a similar threat to our forces and our own pre dreadnought. I feel a better use of material would be a larger fleet of lighter vessels to use as merchant raiders even if the enemy has a powerful surface combatant of its own a pre dreadnought or perhaps a few heavier armored cruisers they're strategic and tactical threat to us would be minimized by our ability to outmaneuver them. However if we are fixed on the idea of a pre dreadnought I would suggest we utilize our second design to create a lighter cruiser or early destroyer obviously lacking torpedoes the potential damage these lighter screens could cause would be minimal but the greater number of these vessels would allow the pre dreadnought to cast a wider net as they scour the seas looking for targets of opportunity and alerting our pre dreadnought to any potential threat so it can move to deal with it or flee from it.
Logged

Jilladilla

  • Bay Watcher
  • Most Sleep Deprived
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2021, 01:08:02 am »

That's the preliminary plan, yes. Pre-Dread + Protected Cruiser. The specifics of which aren't nailed down. Could shift to other proposals.
(A destroyer was considered, but shelved as we suspect that it wouldn't take long to design and then construct)
Logged

Glory to United Forenia!

If you see a 'Nemonole' on the internet elsewhere, it's probably me

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2021, 09:04:47 am »

I worry about a early investment into a pre dreadnought,  it certainly provides some advantages in a strategic sense it is something our enemies cant ignore but it is also in a manner a strategic handicap to us a pre dreadnought would be a massive investment of resources that we would have to carefully protect in order to get the best use out of. On a tactical level a pre dreadnought could likely devastate any enemy formations and even most shore positions however a enemy pre dreadnought would pose a similar threat to our forces and our own pre dreadnought. I feel a better use of material would be a larger fleet of lighter vessels to use as merchant raiders even if the enemy has a powerful surface combatant of its own a pre dreadnought or perhaps a few heavier armored cruisers they're strategic and tactical threat to us would be minimized by our ability to outmaneuver them. However if we are fixed on the idea of a pre dreadnought I would suggest we utilize our second design to create a lighter cruiser or early destroyer obviously lacking torpedoes the potential damage these lighter screens could cause would be minimal but the greater number of these vessels would allow the pre dreadnought to cast a wider net as they scour the seas looking for targets of opportunity and alerting our pre dreadnought to any potential threat so it can move to deal with it or flee from it.

I feel like your examination of the capabilities of a predreadnought or any battleship is somewhat...unfavorable. Merchant raiding is no substitute for an actual navy when you need to do damage, and predreadnoughts are the main hitting power of modern (in game terms) navies. Not that they're called "pre-dreadnoughts", yet, they're just battleships.

They're not fragile little targets that go "pop" when they're hit and the enemies' ships will be at best equal to ours, not superior. A battle line of battleships (predreadnoughts or not) will absolutely have the hitting power to brute force its way to the enemy's equivalent battle line. Torpedoes are a threat....somewhat....to a battleship, but they have incredibly limited range and speed compared to later eras and so they're much less of a threat.

Also you seem to have argued that because predreadnoughts are super dangerous and enemy ships could be similarly dangerous we should...not build the very dangerous ships because then we'd have to fight the enemy?

Obviously we need a fleet screen, but we also need a heavy hitter capable of taking on the enemies. We might not get a full modern predreadnought battleship, but we should be able to get a second-rate (literally second rate, as in "a battleship not meant to fight first-rate units on equal terms") battleship with a good balance of characteristics. The enemy will not be able to do better due to tonnage limits.

So my suggestion is: 4 techs, then either one revision and one more tech or four revisions depending on whether the first few designs need the extra 3 from not doing the technology to bring them up to spec. The two ships ought to be a light protected cruiser capable of filling the fleet screen and commerce raiding roles as necessary, and a battleship of about 10k tons. Probably with four ten-inch guns but we might be able to do four 11in or four 12in, if we make advances in steel and apply them to a large gun to keep the weight down. We could more or less take the Royal Sovereign class, remove the torpedo tubes, shrink the guns from 13.5in to 12in or so, and improve our armor steel so the main belt is 10-12in instead of 14-18in (with similar reductions in all other measurements), and reduce the range. That should give us the ~4k tons saved we'd need. Royal Sovereign used compound armor, by the way, so since we're using basic Krupp steel armor, from the sound of things, we're already ahead, and if we push further ahead, well, so much the better.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

UristMcRiley

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2021, 01:11:30 pm »

The point I was trying and evidently failing to stress is I believe putting too many eggs in one basket before we are aware of our opponents capabilities is a detrimental strategy. For example say we do end up with a powerful battle line that can sweep anything our opponents can put against it from the sea what if our opponents pursued a more mobile force of light armored cruisers and they're screens who they can field in greater numbers operating in so many places that our battle line cannot react to all of the threats allowing our opponents to strategically out maneuver us even though we can tactically defeat them in any engagement. Or the worst case scenario in which our opponents also invest heavily into a battle line but through a combination of different technologies pursued by them or simply poor luck it inflicts a crippling defeat on our battle line meaning we cant respond to any threat of the enemy. I perhaps incorrectly and to timidly am proposing we split our eggs into as many baskets as possible in order to open up our strategic options at the cost of some tactical options a stronger force would open for us.

I'm not strictly opposed to a strong battle line I simply think it is too ambitious to pursue this early before were aware of our enemies capabilities
Logged

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2021, 01:18:13 pm »

If their forces are more mobile but less powerful then we can disperse or concentrate our battle units as necessary and succeed in landings and the like while they're reduced to raiding. We might need food imports but they can't afford for us to steamroll the land campaign by shore support and, y'know, actually landing forces under cover of the battleships. And if we are hurt by raiding, a single battleship can accompany a convoy and absolutely destroy any attempted attacks through its superior range and protection; see the old Queen Elizabeth-class fast battleships escorting convoys in WWII and scaring off the proportionally more capable (than what you're imagining) Scharnhorst-class raiders through their 15" guns and superior armor protection.

If their battle line is so disproportionately powerful that they actually destroy ours in the first turn engagement then the balancing of this game is screwed completely. Not to mention the sheer unlikelihood of that.

Not getting battleships would be FOOLISH; they take forever to design and build so if we don't have them at game start it might be half a dozen turns until we have them. If we decided later that we needed one, we'd be in the deep end.

Basically, I can't imagine a possibility where it actually makes sense for us not to use our advantage of "big ships and good crews" to make big ships with good crews.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Happerry

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2021, 01:39:04 am »

I want to point out that designing a ship isn't building a ton of them. We're nowhere near the building phase yet, if we end up with a meh battleship and good cruisers we can always just build two battleships or so for fleet in being and then put the rest of our resources in cruisers. Or if we end up with meh cruisers and good battleships we can go more heavily in on battleships to apply superior firepower to problems.

But going 'I worry about an early investment in pre-dread battleships so I do not want to even design any' just seems overly alarmist, and as far as I can tell that's your position on them?

Quote
'Diretta' Naval Turbine Powerplant (1) : Happerry
Composizione B Structural Steel (0) :
Monteriggioni Vetreria Improved Rangefinders (1) : Happerry
Improved Armor Steel (0) :
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 05:08:13 pm by Happerry »
Logged
Forenia Forever!
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

UristMcRiley

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2021, 12:52:01 pm »

I suppose I am being a bit alarmist I just wanted to make the point I think a investment into heavy ships limits some of our options, but since it seems like that's what were going to go with I think pursuing the structural steel and improved rangefinders is the best bet for tech, the armor plating would be nice for added protection but structural steel will still strengthen our vessels and make them a good deal tougher and the rangefinder will hopefully improve the effectiveness of our gunners obviously it isn't as good as proper fire control but its certainly better then nothing.

Quote
'Diretta' Naval Turbine Powerplant (1) : Happerry
Composizione B Structural Steel (1) : UristMcRiley
Monteriggioni Vetreria Improved Rangefinders (2) : Happerry, UristMcRiley
Improved Armor Steel (0) :
Logged

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2021, 08:46:13 pm »

Quote
'Diretta' Naval Turbine Powerplant (2) : Happerry, Madman
Composizione B Structural Steel (2) : UristMcRiley, Madman
Monteriggioni Vetreria Improved Rangefinders (2) : Happerry, UristMcRiley
Improved Armor Steel (0) :

For reference we will hopefully be doing ALL of these techs before making our first ships so we don't need to cherry pick them; I'm just going for the two I want most of all to try and get them immediately to see the results of them.

Urist I can only point out that EVERY SINGLE MAJOR NAVY did their best to maintain fleets of capital ships and so did many minor navies. They are purely a good thing to have and not a disadvantage AT ALL whatsoever.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

UristMcRiley

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2021, 08:51:22 pm »

Again I'm aware of that fact my personal experience and opinion it just seems to limit our options in my dream world we would spend one of our techs getting torpedoes or naval mines designing a powerful armed tender, and a motor torpedo boat and simply swarm over our enemies with any amount of casualties we take being far outweighed by the damages we inflict on our enemies. Obviously that is overly optimistic and overly ambitious I  simply think it would be so unexpected it might work. But that's neither here or there also i did not realize we were going to be getting all of the techs and that is my fault, so apologies there.
Logged

TricMagic

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2021, 08:54:01 pm »

Quote
'Diretta' Naval Turbine Powerplant (3) : Happerry, Madman, TricMagic
Composizione B Structural Steel (3) : UristMcRiley, Madman, TricMagic
Monteriggioni Vetreria Improved Rangefinders (2) : Happerry, UristMcRiley
Improved Armor Steel (0) :
+1 to MM.
Logged

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2021, 09:41:16 pm »

Again I'm aware of that fact my personal experience and opinion it just seems to limit our options in my dream world we would spend one of our techs getting torpedoes or naval mines designing a powerful armed tender, and a motor torpedo boat and simply swarm over our enemies with any amount of casualties we take being far outweighed by the damages we inflict on our enemies. Obviously that is overly optimistic and overly ambitious I  simply think it would be so unexpected it might work. But that's neither here or there also i did not realize we were going to be getting all of the techs and that is my fault, so apologies there.

Ahahahahahaha this is EXACTLY what Sothweg did in the previous game and it's exactly what the French tried to do with the Jeune Ecole and it just doesn't work in practice. Those ships die in droves trying to close the range and as soon as the other side knows you went with such a stupid fleet composition they build a horde of TBDs and you lose even more torpedo boats, even faster.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

UristMcRiley

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2021, 09:46:29 pm »

Again I did say it was a dream, and i think this little debate, argument, my maddened rantings however you see it. I've conceded I'm more then alright with pursuing a Pre Dreadnought and cruiser within the pre game, so let me pose this question assuming we get all four of these technologies what are we thinking for a general design for the dreadnought and cruiser and if we don't get these technologies what's are worst case scenario designs were going to go with.
Logged

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Refit and Repair 2. Magna Mongadizafra, 1st Pregame Design Phase.
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2021, 10:07:24 pm »

Right now I'm thinking about going for a simple pure predreadnought with 10-12" of armor (if we get the armor steel upgrades), 4 12" guns in two twin turrets, and a uniform battery of 4" or 5" guns for defense against torpedo boats, probably plus assorted machineguns and autocannon. I would therefore like to make a 4" or 5" quick-firing gun, for obvious reasons. Probably about 19 knots speed to keep weight down.

Then a light cruiser carrying a set of four to six or so of the aforementioned quick-firing guns plus some lighter weapons as previous, as well as a torpedo armament. The speed of these ships should be 25-28 knots to make sure they can usefully outmaneuver predreadnoughts.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 20