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Author Topic: Bridges - WIP  (Read 21169 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2021, 12:53:59 am »

The funny thing is, if I drop the 3D elements (which brings the bridge in line with furniture and buildings), people will complain that it looks too flat. As was evident in the first version, which was top-down.
And thus my question to Toady a page or two back (here or the other thread, I forget). Can't we have both? Drawbridges as flat drawbridges and "paved stones crossing rivers" or whatever they are be actual bridges like these fine designs? Ah, a dream perhaps.

Maybe it's the presentation that's getting you poor feedback. Who builds drawbridges over rivers anyway? Instead of demonstrating them as bridges, show them in use as actual drawbridges, at a fortress entrance covering a chasm with lava far below? Flat would look OK there.

Or...add a little animation to the drawbridge raising to make them cleverly fold up like an overly complex dwarven bridge should.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 12:55:40 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Meph

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2021, 12:57:09 am »

The paved stone bridges as you call them are just walls and floors. They have nothing on them indicating that they are a bridge.

The initial screenshots showed bridges on a fort entry in the hills.

Animations... ha, no. XD The drawbridges in the game are so nonsensical, I have no idea how they would even close. A stone bridge, 10 tiles wide without any chains or ropes anywhere, raises up to a 1 tile wall? ^^
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Mr Crabman

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2021, 01:39:18 am »

The funny thing is, if I drop the 3D elements (which brings the bridge in line with furniture and buildings), people will complain that it looks too flat. As was evident in the first version, which was top-down.

Well, in all honesty it looks flat vertically anyway since the curve is only visible from the sides, so trying to "fight the flat" might be futile anyway; the improved consistency with other flooring tiles, as well as the appearance being more accurate to the function (you know, as a drawbridge), is worth it being a bit flat looking IMO (especially since it's still flat 50% of the time even now).

PatrikLundell

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2021, 04:10:07 am »

I'm for drawbridges looking flat as drawbridges should be flat to function properly (despite dwarven retraction/raising magic).

As for animation, it's simple: Just raise the bridge normally until you hit the top of the tile. As you continue to raise it you'd keep the top of the bridge at the top of the tile, shortening the bridge as you go (I'm NOT suggesting you should try to actually implement any such animation!).
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Starver

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2021, 04:43:21 am »

I'd just like to point out that the whole-bridge 'arch' isn't any part of my objection (and I've just whittled on in the Steam-announcement thread of an ćsthetic issue that would follow the slightly-higher-than-ground nature of such things, for any glyph/sprite supposed to be overlaid onto those tiles).

It was the conceptual multi-spanning across totally hypothetical mid-stream piers that I felt was... A Bridge Too Far..?


(The end-tile shading, at least for the bridges with any sensible direction to them[1] represent the appearance of token-vertical elevation adequately in both lateral and perpendicular bridges, removing the total flatness. Except maybe in the 1-tile up-down orientation, which is borderline non-obvious without the raising-bridge ornamentation, but not sure at all if it could/should be improved.)


[1] I could easily explain circumstances where even this is not correct, insofar as how a bridge is functionally used, with 'side access' instead of onto and off the lead-on/lead-off ramps. But wouldn't expect the game to realise this is the purposeful build-aim and adjust. Instead, it'd be a small (wagon-negotiable) step and nobody need worry about it further!
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Pillbo

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2021, 02:44:07 pm »

I think the bridges look really nice and I like the 3d effect. I think the ropes imply a barrier that isn't there, but if you told me it's part of the mechanism to raise the bridge I don't think it's a big deal, they do look good.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2021, 03:06:04 pm »

Personally, the bridge piers and arch look great and make sense for non mechanized bridges, but don't make much sense at all once it's retractable/lifts up. Would it be possible to have two bridge versions for that? Would also help make it easy to tell if it's a mechanized bridge or not at a glance.
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Mr Crabman

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2021, 04:47:39 pm »

Personally, the bridge piers and arch look great and make sense for non mechanized bridges, but don't make much sense at all once it's retractable/lifts up. Would it be possible to have two bridge versions for that? Would also help make it easy to tell if it's a mechanized bridge or not at a glance.

I'm pretty sure the non-mechanized bridge would just not have those "hinges" at the end.

Starver

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2021, 05:38:22 pm »

To quote the Reddit post pointed to (elsewhere):
Quote
Without the draw-bridge-mechanisms on one end, they'd look like this: https://i.imgur.com/l5dPX6y.png

Ignoring the red rope (I have ideas about that!) and the problems in the game assuming which edges it needs to guard, that'd be a perfect non-raising (but retracting) bridge.  The lack of archedness (will please some, not sure it's for the best though) might indicate neither-raising-nor-retracting bridges constructed with an entirely static purpose.


Should I actually wrangle up a demo? I really don't want to step on design-toes. It'll be entirely rip-off graphics, of course (the limit to my artfulness).
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2021, 05:51:11 pm »

Oh yeah, also worth considering bridges that don't go over streams but rather say a chasm or constructions up in the air. The graphics need to work well enough in multiple circumstances, which would either need multiple choices you can choose from like with furniture or a more balanced take that fits all fairly well.
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Bumber

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2021, 05:07:22 am »

My opinions:

3D sloping and drop shadow - Yes.
Arches - Kind of weird to have on a drawbridge. Have the side just be solid/straight?
Posts - No. Looks like they block movement. Especially when you're stepping from ground -> bridge instead of bridge -> bridge.
Rope - Makes sense, but issue with posts. Could use metal staples instead of posts (or just use really tiny posts.) Or have the rope run along the side or inside of the bridge somehow.

The North/South drawbridges look fine. I'd like to see a version with drop shadows, if it looks okay from that angle. (Would the shadows always appear, or is it only over liquid/air? Might use slimmer shadowing if you can't differentiate the tiles.)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 05:31:30 am by Bumber »
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Starver

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2021, 04:24:35 pm »


You'll note I put the rope (there to 'explain' the drawbridge effect) flush with the edge (which is only as raised as the 'deck'). I left little 'knobs' to hold the rope, which shouldn't be too intrusive (mentally or in-universe).

The shadow is 'always there', but normally obscured, the intention being to mark where a 'bridge exists' even when levered up (or out) as a subordinate mask. (There's also another sliver of shadow indicating the gap beneath; an element you'd skip if it had pure open space below, or maybe translate it to sunken ground on top of the new 'Z-level haze.) I probably could have made it less prominent, BYGTI.

Even earlier mockups I made included retracting bridges as well as raising ones, over straight ground/water/drops and with 'tween' frames for demonstrating how the type of bridge is (de)activated. But I'd have to find it and probably also completely redo that with this WIP-model (or anything even newer) in mind.

I note, on quickly glancing at what I've just uploaded, that I've made a couple of small errors that are painfully obvious to me but hopefully you'll all be unable to see them - probably pick up something else I did wrong... ;) Also, I should have further staggered the raisings/lowerings to make it less distracting as multiple actions happen at once. Sorry it's so distracting!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 04:37:37 pm by Starver »
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Meph

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2021, 01:33:56 am »

That looks pretty good too. :)

Toady isn't the biggest fan of the shadows of the raised bridge, but he suggested a kind of "docking station", a little frame that the drawbridge connects to when it's lowered. That will be the next thing I'll do, on this surprisingly long road of drawing bridges. XD
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Starver

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2021, 08:53:15 am »

It depends on the intended balance of what you'll accept as in-universe or not, really. People here seem to not like physical-looking barriers that aren't, and then again how much 'glow'-style UI-only stuff do you want that's 'clearly' not a true feature that a dorf would be faced with in a first-person viewpoint.

A far earlier attempt at mocking-up that I did, pre-Steam, experimented with little "L"s and/or "triangular plates" at the corners (less than a third of the tile-side, so that a 1x1 didn't look like you could tightrope across the 'spar', nor obviously stride across the gap). In the above I nearly left in the opposite side 'footing' in that posted one (the 'plaform heel' I put under the down-ramp), as something similar, except for it not being right for a number of other reasons (including that, though in this case the ramp-end lands on ground, I personally avoid this positioning in case of accidental atom-smashing, so would end it at the bank/chasm-edge itself).

The four corners so defined, for both raising and retracting[1] and maybe even fully-static, these features can be similar to your bridge-edging (that I left on the N-S version, but inconsistently overedited as the lowered 'rope' on the E-W ones!), as far as they extend, and do something simar to the stockpile-edges (but corners only, with a vastly simpler range of shapes therein - I previously mentioned my chequerboard-interleved pair of stockpiles, I think, but you'll never get that complicated with monolithically rectangular bridges). The "raising edge" would be enhanced (or replaced) by the drawbridge/raised-wall graphic. If two or more bridges abutt, this should sufficiently indicate the footprints in levered out (as well as in-place) positions.


Something I often do, BTW, is put four (up-to-)maximally-sized retracting bridges across my 'skylights', with additional lines of floor 'gantries' to split gaps larger than such a simple four-square system can handle. With a 'corner-L', there'd be a floating 'dual crosshair' cross in mid-air. With objectless shadows (as above, if actually shown in mid-air) it might be better understood with a degree of feathering/fade towards the edge.


Right now, though, there's practically no indication[3] of whether/how a raised/retracted bridge is occupying the floorspace (making it something that would block future bridges attempted to be built to overlap what's already potentially there), so maybe there's no real loss if it isn't shown. Except during Placement mode, perhaps, where levered-away bridges and the footprints of those bridges pre-designated but not yet constructed can be given a 'coverage' indicator like a shadow/glow/strobing-diagonal-pattern/whatever just to indicate what cannot be overlapped and to indicate what distance must be covered to ensure a flush-meeting of opposing sides of a double-drawbridge.


[1] I had at one point played with the bridge-deck actually animating to retract into any/all of the required supporting ground, 'louvering' into a compact (not 'raised as wall') fudge attempt go explain where jt's gone. But this might require further in-game info to check which sides are suitably supportive, or remember the valudation granted for it at build-time - plus update this if you built an opposing 'supporting ground' then removed the original. But then, as you know, I sometimes overthink things!

[3] Possibly, and I may be wrong here until I check it, but under vanilla graphics I think the 'empty air' below a bridge always shows a higher-level bridge's footprint, as it does a floor-gantry or any other construction. But that's no use if there's no depth to go and look at (or, in the multi-Z-depth-view coming to Steam-graphics, observed as additional shadowing through the depth-haze) because it's a flat-on-ground atom-smasher or similarly covering not enough depth to resolve.
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Bumber

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Re: Bridges - WIP
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2021, 03:54:50 pm »

Are the mechanisms always the same color, or will they change if linked to something using colored mechanisms?
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?
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