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[Coriantumr]

For those that have played Nethack, you'll know what Demogorgon is: Arguably the most powerful demon-prince in that game, rated even more difficult than Death, Famine, and Pestilence.

In a normal game of Nethack you are unlikely to ever encounter Demogorgon because he doesn't spawn directly; he must be summoned by a lesser demon, or another demon prince. A typical encounter by an unprepared player with Demogorgon goes something like this:

You miss Demogorgon.
Demogorgon stings!
You feel very sick.
Demogorgon stings!
You feel worse!
Demogorgon casts a spell!
Dreadful wounds appear on your body!
Demogorgon hits!
You zap the wand of death!
The death ray hits Demogorgon!
Demogorgon is uneffected.
Demogorgon stings!
You die from your illness.

What makes him so deadly is he has two attacks that cause deadly sickness, as well as generally hitting very hard anyhow, AND having the ability to cast high level magic, possibly even summoning other demon princes to his aid. The sickness attacks are the worst part, if they are not cured immediately the effects will stack with each other and you can be dead in less than five turns.

After fighting a Giant Cave Spider last night I was immediately reminded of Demogorgon... simply because it has so many insta-death ways of killing you. If you are lucky and don't get instantly paralyzed by webbing, then it will bite you and you will almost instantly be paralyzed by poison. From that point on it could nibble you to death if it wanted because you are completely helpless.

I'm perfectly okay with having nearly unbeatable enemies in the game, in fact it was quite thrilling to actually engage a GCS in melee combat and win (even thought it was by pure dumb luck.)

... However, I would expect such an epic foe to be a little less common. As it stands I more often than not run into at least one in every cave, and usually more than one. My wife had a good laugh at me the other night because I had just barely survived a spider encounter only to run into another one just around the corner.

The chances of even another demon prince summoning Demogorgon are less than 1/200, so the chances of running into him (unless you are trying to) are pretty low.

Why are Giant Cave Spiders so common?

[ January 26, 2008: Message edited by: Coriantumr ]

[Sean Mirrsen]

Perhaps because they are? Cave spiders are pretty common in caves, and Giant Cave Spiders as their larger versions seem rather well placed.

They are lethal, however, so your only defence is "giant cave spider antivenin", the antidote to the GCS's poison (possibly obtainable from forts that managed to capture and process the beasts), and a large number of meatshields.

In my Martial Arts mod, the GCS also has an attack with its legs, that lowers its efficiency somehat, because the attack does not poison, even though it is somewhat more "kickey". You might have other things to worry about in caves other than the GCS with the mod though...

[Coriantumr]

Given how common they are I wish there were defensive methods that didn't rely purely on being lucky. Antivenin would be a nice thing, but I imagine that actually procuring any is next to impossible, and even if I could get it, by the time I need to use it I'm usually tangled in web, rapidly numbing, and depending on where I got bitten, important body parts are mangled/missing and I'm in shock from the pain while bleeding to death.

I don't usually play with a small army of meatshields, so I guess my only real option to ensure survival is to just avoid caves where I know or can reasonably guess there are spiders... which to date is about three quarters of the caves I have entered.

[Gaulgath]

I was searching for a cave entrance once and one of them charged OUTSIDE to puncture my soft, vulnerable flesh with those damn death-fangs. I jumped in the water, hoping that it wouldn't be able to reach me.

Naturally, it grabbed from the shore and bit into my chest, causing a mortal wound to my heart.

[Zogundar]

Since I couldn't seem to affect their frequency via modding, I beat the crap out of them with the Nerf Stick in the creatures_subterranean file.

code:

[CREATURE:SPIDER_CAVE_GIANT]
   [NAME:giant cave spider:giant cave spiders:giant cave spider]
   [TILE:'S'][COLOR:7:0:0]
   [MODVALUE:10]
   [LARGE_ROAMING][FREQUENCY:20][DIFFICULTY:3]
   [EXTRACT:giant cave spider venom:7:0:0]
   [EXTRACT_VALUE:100]
   [EXTRACT_PARALYZE][NATURAL][PET_EXOTIC]
   [EXTRACT_ANTIDOTE:giant cave spider antivenin:7:0:0:100]
   [WEBIMMUNE][AMBUSHPREDATOR]
   [LARGE_PREDATOR]
   [GENPOWER:4]
   [BLOODTYPE:W][CHITIN]
   [PETVALUE:2500]
   [GRASSTRAMPLE:10]
   [CARNIVORE]
   [EXTRAVISION][NOEMOTION][NOSKULL][NOBONES]
   [BUILDINGDESTROYER:1]
   [PREFSTRING:mystery]
   [BODY:SPIDER:2EYES:HEART:GUTS:BRAIN:MOUTH]
   [SIZE:8]
   [MAXAGE:20:30]
   [ATTACK:MAIN:BYTYPE:MOUTH:bite:bites:1:3:GORE]
   [FAT:1]
   [NO_SLEEP]
   [ALL_ACTIVE]
   [POPULATION_NUMBER:0:2]
   [BIOME_SUBTERRANEAN_CHASM]
   [HOMEOTHERM:10040]
   [STANDARD_FLESH]

Much better.

[Karlito]

So no webs and no poison. Personally I think its fun to be slaughtered repeatedly by the same spider over the course of 50 adventures.

[Captain Mayday]

Just having reduced the damage to 1:3 should be a pretty serious nerf.
Half the reason they are so deadly is because they do so much damage per hit.

[Zogundar]

quote:Originally posted by Karlito:
<STRONG>So no webs and no poison. Personally I think its fun to be slaughtered repeatedly by the same spider over the course of 50 adventures.</STRONG>

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.  

Getting rid of No Pain was important too. Whoever heard of a spider that didn't feel pain? Forcing them to black out after having one of their many, many limbs hacked off or smashed in is necessary to mitigate the fact that they HAVE so many limbs. I also felt its latch-on ability was a bit much too, so I also removed that. The result is many dead Cave Spiders.

I disagree about the damage nerf. The damage is painful, but the immobilization attacks they have are the real killers. How often do you get killed by a Giant Spider just by duking it out?

[Torak]

quote:Originally posted by Zogundar:
<STRONG>How often do you get killed by a Giant Spider just by duking it out?</STRONG>

100%

[Zogundar]

quote:Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>

100%</STRONG>

So you're never been killed by them because you were webbed, paralyzed, or latched on to? Every time it's because they just happened to get in a good *whack* with one of their legs and your head was caved in?

[Torak]

quote:Originally posted by Zogundar:
<STRONG>

So you're never been killed by them because you were webbed, paralyzed, or latched on to? Every time it's because they just happened to get in a good *whack* with one of their legs and your head was caved in?</STRONG>

My 100% was more referring to when I "duke it out" with a spider I die 100% of the time.

[umiman]

There's no need to argue over this. You see, the gods have always blessed the two-legged races with a distinct and powerful ability that none of the beasts can hope to ever use.

It's called throwing and bolts; for none know of a more potent anti-spider than thrown coins and the almighty crossbow.

By the way, I think a skeletal elephant would kick that Demogorgon guy's arse. Nyuh.

[Sean Mirrsen]

We need Driders.  

[umiman]

I just slaughtered two of the things. The first one happened when I wandered into a cave the the very first step inside was a cave spider. I guess I lucked out as I knocked it out in one shot and proceeded to rip it limb from limb.

The second one was in the same cave, and poisoned / paralyzed me instantly. then my glorious drunks came and saved my behind by battering it to death with their socks.

A third giant cave spider was put down by a fellow axeman who was accompanying me. All this within 5 minutes.

But now I'm constantly stunned and unconscious. Will it ever heal?

EDIT: okay, turns out the reason why I keep getting stunned / paralyzed is because I'm missing all my limbs below my groin. So they are dangerous after all...

[ January 27, 2008: Message edited by: umiman ]

[BlueDestiny]

I just had an interesting encounter with them. I was on my way to kill a cyclops, and when I arrive at the cave I get flooded with messages about kobold children being torn limb from limb by the spiders. What makes it more interesting was that I had been walking around the cave area for a while to make it day, so if I hadn't done that the convoy would be alive probably. I managed to get a good chop on one's head, and sent it into a pit. It came out and I promptly split it in half from crown to toes. I rescued a drunk from a cave swallowman who was strangling him, but then got webbed, paralyzed, and eaten.