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Author Topic: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread  (Read 4484 times)

squamous

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[MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« on: July 03, 2021, 05:58:54 pm »

I am really, really interested in this feature, but I have no luck in getting it to actually happen in my world. For context, my mod doesn't have goblins and only a few random gen demons, the rest being custom ones that do show up as dark tower leaders and hellbeasts. So, this thread is for two things.

1. Figuring out what triggers demon invasions
2. Tricks or ideas to maximize the potential of these events

for example, demons spawn with goblins when they take over a civ, right? So, there could be a way to make it so they spawn with your custom invader race, shouldn't it? Feel free to discuss other things as well.

RESULTS:

Here are the conditions required for a demonic incursion to spawn (list is being updated):


1. There must be a fortress-type entity with the tag [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] attached
2. In order for there to be a ruler, there must be a procgen or custom creature with the UNIQUE_DEMON tag
3. In order for there to be minions, there must be an intelligent race with the EVIL tag, and they must have a civ file
4. In order for there to be demonic (non-minion) underlings or creatures, there must be procgen or custom creatures with the DEMON tag
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 04:13:25 pm by squamous »
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Enemy post

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2021, 06:42:50 pm »

I'm pretty sure that the reason demons can create goblins upon breaking free is that the goblins are a dark fortress civ. Not having done any real research, I don't think actual dwarves are essential to making this happen, since it's caused by the 'underworld disasters' tag.

I'd think that the best way to test this would be to make a quick mod where every civ has [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS], do a few worldgens, and then look for commonalities in the civs that caused problems. I don't have time to actually try that now, though.
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squamous

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2021, 06:54:15 pm »

I'm pretty sure that the reason demons can create goblins upon breaking free is that the goblins are a dark fortress civ. Not having done any real research, I don't think actual dwarves are essential to making this happen, since it's caused by the 'underworld disasters' tag.

I'd think that the best way to test this would be to make a quick mod where every civ has [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS], do a few worldgens, and then look for commonalities in the civs that caused problems. I don't have time to actually try that now, though.

My issue is that I did that and all the nations I attached the tag to didn't spawn any demons, so I'm a little stumped. I think at minimum you have to get 3 different variables right, the civ, the demons, and the minion race, though maybe only 2 of those dictate success.
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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2021, 07:30:29 pm »

I'm surprised that regular dwarves didn't set it off. Was that an otherwise vanilla game aside from the addition of UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS?
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squamous

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2021, 07:44:57 pm »

I'm surprised that regular dwarves didn't set it off. Was that an otherwise vanilla game aside from the addition of UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS?
Nope, it's a total overhaul mod of mine with no goblins, no dwarves, and custom-made demons replacing (mostly) procgen ones. There are still vanilla demons but most of the time it's my custom demons ruling, as I intended. My goal is for demonic incursions to occur in my custom civs, using my custom invaders, led by custom demons, so all three of these variables need to be in alignment for it to trigger (I think). However, I made the thread for general experimentation regarding this tag as I think it's very interesting and has a lot of potential.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 07:47:16 pm by squamous »
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brewer bob

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2021, 08:00:15 pm »

So, there could be a way to make it so they spawn with your custom invader race, shouldn't it?

I recently (accidentally) managed to do this, I think. I added my custom bugbears and vanilla trolls to the subterranean animal people entity, and was surprised when during world gen they became listed as a civ along others. Turns out the dwarves dug too deep and the clowns arrived with bugbears this time.

I'm not sure what was the exact cause, but both bugbears & trolls had the EVIL token, so maybe that combined with the LAYER_LINKED did it. I managed to replicate this with another custom creature that was evil and made a layer linked entity for it with no default site type.

Haven't really tested further than that yet, but the civs have spawned reliably along the clowns once there's a mining disaster during world gen.
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squamous

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2021, 08:14:16 pm »

So, there could be a way to make it so they spawn with your custom invader race, shouldn't it?

I recently (accidentally) managed to do this, I think. I added my custom bugbears and vanilla trolls to the subterranean animal people entity, and was surprised when during world gen they became listed as a civ along others. Turns out the dwarves dug too deep and the clowns arrived with bugbears this time.

I'm not sure what was the exact cause, but both bugbears & trolls had the EVIL token, so maybe that combined with the LAYER_LINKED did it. I managed to replicate this with another custom creature that was evil and made a layer linked entity for it with no default site type.

Haven't really tested further than that yet, but the civs have spawned reliably along the clowns once there's a mining disaster during world gen.

Goblins don't have LAYER_LINKED though, so it could have been something else.
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squamous

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2021, 11:38:24 pm »

To add to this, I have managed to get one of my sites to spawn custom demon incursions by making it as close to the vanilla dwarf civs as possible. Also, it turns out that the bug where custom demons don't spawn if you turn off all vanilla demons must have been fixed from that last update way back, because they spawn now, which is great.

EDIT: It seems like adding the tag to hamlet civs will result in the game eventually crashing during worldgen.

EDIT 2: Actually the crash might be some other thing I've inexplicably messed up, don't worry about it unless it happens to you I guess
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 01:28:28 am by squamous »
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voliol

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2021, 10:31:28 am »

This is the quote about the EVIL token, I think. Still, it's kind of vague.

Quote from: FotF Reply June 2019, Toady One
Quote
So are these new civs basically goblin civs lead by a released demon? Or actual full-on hell civs packed with demons and a couple of goblins thrown in? Do they create the initial goblins?

They have goblins so that they can behave normally, but they have a pack of 5-20 non-civ-leader underworld demons to make them scarier, and they also have a standard demon leader.  All of these creatures are created on the spot, as the underworld is assumed to have unnumbered amounts of such beings currently, though the goblin is faked and indeed it just checks for the EVIL tag on them, the good old EVIL tag.  I didn't bother simulating their underworld pops on account of time and the upcoming magic release clarification of these matters.

FantasticDorf

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2021, 06:10:14 pm »

I think i have some concrete research on the matter
Quote
- Any creature that has [EVIL] and exists within a entity is implicitly a demon minion for a deep-disaster and will wander there when there are no demons defined. This is well backed up by the current state of vanilla goblins which arent hardcoded into the HFS per-say, and i've seen it occur on the masterwork mod when it has been shunted to 47.01+ to succubi fufilling a similar requirement, but more than one race displaying this trait simply splits the chance in half, thirds, quarters and so on.

- On conquering the dwarf site they'll raze the entire place destroying temples and building new ones in their place if the entity the underlings are drawn from has a religion, made more potent from the freshly generated unique demon possibly having evil biome spreading effects by affiliation on creation (i didnt detail the temple building too hard, i assume so since the dwarf site could accomodate it)

Quote
- Demons impose their own hardcoded position to [POSITION:WORSHIP_HF] hardcoded title but when your race assumes control after the demons demise they will have full control over the name-scheme, responsibilities etc. Actually getting a demon you want on the top of the dark fortress is actually impossible for this reason (im contemplating opening a suggestion to have a worldconfig random demons: true/false)  but any creatures living in your civ you want can take over afterwards.

^ This is my freshest finding, i've validated it on seperate occasions where the said goblin inheriting from the master title had the position defined title and authority over others designated, and on a 0 demon world, when they emerge they'll be as you defined them typically above the hard-coded monarch. In 44.12 the monarch and the demon used to be the same but they were seperated on 47.01 (or possibly later, playable goblin civs wasnt fixed till 47.05 which is my testing version)

If the position isn't edited it is just inherited, hence jumping master to master, rather than master to "Cybernetic Killerdeath Lasereyed Goblinoid Overlord" or "Harbinger of Chaos" if appropriate , but obviously removing demons to make them entirely a jack-in-the-box nation means you can't have the classic spire dark_fortress sites anymore.



Right now im working on a Skaven undercity type of modification by simply setting the worldfile demons to 0, giving skaven a bog standard entity (briefly borrowing some old warhammer mods) then letting them go ham on some warhammer dwarves when the time is right. One civ per clan because they're not loaded in to the civ capacity to split the chances 4 ways.

Shadow of the horned rat and all that jazz.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 06:30:23 pm by FantasticDorf »
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voliol

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2021, 05:16:56 am »

That first point explains why we havenít been seeing any foul blendec deep-disaster civs - even when intelligent they donít really join any entity.

I wonder about the ambiguity though, is a creature existing within an entity any member of such, or just the main creature of the entity defined in the raws?
I.e. if you made an evil version of the gorlak, or added [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] to one of the already existing evil sentients lime blendecs or harpies so they would join existing civs, could these sub-populations be picked to help the demons giving you a non-goblin deep-disaster civ? I imagine it would be a pain testing for though.

brewer bob

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2021, 06:18:19 am »

- Any creature that has [EVIL] and exists within a entity is implicitly a demon minion for a deep-disaster and will wander there when there are no demons defined.

I guess that would explain why my layer_linked bugbears & trolls became underlings of the demons then.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2021, 06:33:51 am »

That first point explains why we havenít been seeing any foul blendec deep-disaster civs - even when intelligent they donít really join any entity.

- Any creature that has [EVIL] and exists within a entity is implicitly a demon minion for a deep-disaster and will wander there when there are no demons defined.

I guess that would explain why my layer_linked bugbears & trolls became underlings of the demons then.

Yep, applies to the entity definition's main creature mainly moreso than anything with other population. Though the trolls could just be picked up after through the [USE_EVIL_ANIMALS] and the depth of the dwarf-site since you didn't alter them at all.

If you want a bigger selection of peeps, you'll have to use old-school "entire distinct race rolled into castes" to achieve it which you can then prune.
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brewer bob

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2021, 07:41:30 am »

Though the trolls could just be picked up after through the [USE_EVIL_ANIMALS] and the depth of the dwarf-site since you didn't alter them at all.

I just went to double-check, and I actually had given can_speak to the trolls. (Wonder how many other small changes I've made that I've forgotten?)

In any case, your findings helped quite a bit, thanks!
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squamous

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Re: [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] thread
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2021, 02:39:07 pm »

Just to suss things out, I think a list of traits might be beneficial. Essentially, I think we should determine all the traits across all files necessary for a demonic invasion to occur, including the obvious ones. For example, these are ones I am absolutely sure must be present:

1. There must be a fortress-type entity with the tag [MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS] attached
2. In order for there to be a ruler, there must be a procgen or custom creature with the UNIQUE_DEMON tag
3. In order for there to be minions, there must be an intelligent race with the EVIL tag
4. In order for there to be demonic (non-minion) underlings or creatures, there must be procgen or custom creatures with the DEMON tag
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