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Author Topic: Multi-race Fortress and More Starting Dwarves, possible using domestication  (Read 683 times)

Mobbstar

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  • aka Mossbird
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    • my Invisible, Inc. mods

The Goal

I wanted to make a Fortress which has mixed species among its citizens, without using the CASTE system (it would cause children to randomly be either race). Unlike most discussion on the forums, I do not care about the civilisation-wide presence of the additional species, but they should be treated as people. (spoilers: They do have civilisation-wide presence, on accident, but only as a minority.)

The Idea

I read that Gremlins can be tamed, and then petition for citizenship due to being intelligent. I figured getting intelligent creatures to count as pseudo-livestock might allow for a multirace fortress.

Specifically, I marked a creature definition (custom or vanilla) as domesticated and intelligent.

The How-To

To make the additional race domesticated:
  • [COMMON_DOMESTIC] in the creature raw adds it to all civ entities.
  • [ANIMAL] in the entity raw adds it to a specific entity only. Use [ANIMAL_ALWAYS_PRESENT] to guarantee its existence.

To make the additional race civilised:
  • [INTELLIGENT] or [CAN_LEARN] for citizenship.
  • [LOCAL_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] or [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] to prevent merchants from trying to trade them like slaves.

There is no need to specify natural occurence in any biome. Do not add pet-related tokens (except optionally PET_VALUE for embark cost).

The Findings

The domesticated species shows up in the domesticating civs in the usual livestock quantities. (Possibly including the chance for ridiculously overpopulated hillocks?)

The domesticated specimen have (tame) appended to their species in most occurences. In the status-screen (z), they seemingly count towards both "population" and "other animals". The species shows up in the "overall training" list, as intended. Besides these quirks, they behave nothing like pets and entirely like legally naturalised long-term residents, including clothing and marriage. Tokens such as "wagon puller" seem to be ignored.

If the domesticated species is not the civilisations main species, then domesticated specimen cannot be assigned to nobility positions, including military captain. I believe this is the same as with regular naturalised long-term residents. Notably, the domesticated specimen are always elligible for becoming the initial expedition leader, regardless of species.

The domesticated specimen share the values and faiths of their parent civ. Further testing regarding tissue styles is needed, as this dwarven civ went mostly clean-shaven...

Offspring appears to work correctly and no longer has the "tame" label nor counts towards "other animals", meaning the second generation is entirely without quirks.

If a domesticated specimen is brought by the merchants (as described before), it will come clothed and the merchants will charge extra for the clothing. Its thoughts can be viewed in full detail, but it cannot be assigned to labours or squads. It can be expelled. It does not seem to make any relationships at all. Further testing is required to determine if it will petition for citizenship.

Though it has not occured in my tests, there is as yet insufficient data to exclude the possibility of domesticated species being brought as "livestock" in migrant waves. According to below posts, it is possible, but suffers the same problem as with merchants, because the game does not attempt to generate a histfig entry.

Though it has not occured in my tests, there is as yet insufficient data to exclude the possibility of domesticated species appearing as histfigs, or in history at all. Despite having the same LOCAL_POP tokens as gorlaks do, I've found several gorlak histfigs and none of the custom domesticated species.

The Example

These are the raw tokens I used in my initial test. They add a new creature called "Bergtroll" to the embark screen and as a minority in most dwarven sites.



These are the raw tokens I used in my final test. They add virtually free dwarf peasants to the embark screen, and because dwarves lack the afforementioned LOCAL_POP tokens, dwarves will also be traded as (mostly useless) slaves.


Remarks

In the event of a legal investigation, I herewith assert that I do not condone slavery and never meant for sentient civilised beings to get traded, and that this research serves to prevent such atrocities in the future.

Feel free to amend the wiki with this information.

If you plan to make a multi-race fortress using this, make sure to bring enough specimen, as you will likely not get any more than those and their children. Marriage is not allowed between siblings, so you must have at least two lineages for them to produce more than one generation.

It is probably unrelated, but during the final test, I received a message that some person not in my Fortress became Sheriff and Commander in a different site.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 12:12:20 pm by Mobbstar »
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Rumrusher

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oh hey someone else tap into the animal entity token raws for having multi species forts or forts that are filled with hardcoded beings like bogeymen or night trolls.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

technically a good work around to the lack of labor control is to enlist them into the military through adventure mode with an adv-military commander as the units that migrate over due to using the animal entity tokens don't have historical figures and are treated like common livestock which probably why they don't have historical figures.
talking to them in adventure mode fixes the historical figure issue and lets one enlist them into the military where you could just send them off on one mission and they come back with labors.


now I also just wrote a dfhack script that patches this so you don't have to go through this issue and I think I posted  the patch in the dfhack thread some time ago.
like this kinda been known just most modders just Still use the caste system route because the other method requires retiring the fort spending 2 weeks in game to creating an adventurer to act as a Animal entity token civ social service worker to grant better citizenship rights to them.

like other than that animal entity tokens works best for additional adventurer options after you unlock them which requires playing an adventurer that starts from that civ and retiring or just I think retiring in the site of the civ that has those animal entity tokens creatures.
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Mobbstar

  • Bay Watcher
  • aka Mossbird
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    • my Invisible, Inc. mods

[...]units that migrate over due to using the animal entity tokens don't have historical figures and are treated like common livestock which probably why they don't have historical figures. [...]

I guess that also explains why the caged "livestock" the merchants behaved this way. Thank you for the explanation!

So, to summarise, the key issue to multi species Fortresses is making the specimen histfigs? And that's done automatically at embark and birth, but not when brought in as livestock via merchants or migration. And it can be done manually in DFHack or adventure mode.
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DwarfStar

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If they are war trainable, you can send them on missions by assigning them to a squad member. I believe that does make them historical figures since it forces them to get a name, and be requestable as a worker when off site. Maybe that would work around your problem?

If that works, you could invent some kind of rationale for this in the mod setting, like, maybe you can say they have to be sent on a raid as a rite of passage to become adults?
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FantasticDorf

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I have a interesting wip hypothesis for my warhammer fantasy greenskins that wants to use this multi-racial doctrine in order to try and overwhelm the opponent and keep a non-stop pain-train via dfhack and modding trickery. I plan to create a bunch of primitive sub factions (and some more substantial ones) attached to hillock generating FORTRESS sites as potential allies to bog down and distract the mainstream factions, and dfhack -force migrants and caravans from them as reinforcements so really they orbit the greenskin race as a whole.

A 200 strong army pops out from the underworld in a engineered dug deep event by subtracting demons from dark fortresses and assigning the greenskin creatures as [EVIL] to be underlings, which keeps them freshly away from being on the map, only birthing on their inception of the random event. Now i've managed to get this far historical figure culling deleting most of the [NO_GENDER] army force afterwards and massive pile-ins of allied dwarves and humans, which i want to disband by engineering a bit more animosity between each other. Work in progress.

A high breeding rate should keep the Ork Waaagh going strong after rooting itself in a dwarf hold, and without giving over rooms to semi-intelligent snotlings by keeping them as animals or least making a concession to keep them in similar conditions as trolls, having them in the fortress should let with a about a year's pregnancy gestation time birth a new host of orcs, goblins and black-orc citizens quickly.

Quote from: How to make reliable semi-intelligent non-members
The technique with trolls or any subservient semi intelligent creature can be engineered with [ANIMAL] tokens accurately, though pets tend to be a handful when its a creature you want to also turn into meat, usually war animals are the most straight foward that civs can get on board with as a valid excuse to keep them (of which 1 is required), and ANIMAL_ALWAYS_AVAILIBLE coupled with [PET_EXOTIC] ([PET] inclines them to keep them on as artisans even if they can't speak, exotic is the sweet spot)

A) They must not speak, ideally [NO_EMOTION] to keep maintenance down to just food and drink, speaking means they'll be allocated professions and be given a citizen slot, which can be messy if it doesn't fit in with the headcannon for what you destined them for, else they will just be livestock, keeping your fort's citizen counts down. DFhack manager can make them do jobs relatively at a poor pace you'd expect.

B) If they sleep, or have bodily needs they can be given a burrowed dorm + pasture with a food and drink supply or free reign to sleep anywhere and eat out of piles. Useful for trolls because often a bulk of them are sheared.

C) Advanced needs like religion are unavoidable so need access somewhere to get rid of the need, and without speaking they can't partake in direct tavern activities or dance ceremonies, but they can listen to sermons & performances.

D) Semi-intelligents you embark with and their matrilineal offspring are historical (born to nonhistorical fathers is valid), contrasted to semi-intelligents you obtain/purchase which arent so its usually a good idea to gui nickname your starting stock for engraving purposes.

You can for instance start with a large amount of female trolls, capture a wild male troll and break it in with training, then use those/them as studs for your new generation of, if your starting male is expensive or impotent.

E) Can be filtered out of worldgen captains to prevent troll captains/recruits, by editing [POSITION:CAPTAIN] then closing in the types of creatures that can apply to be foot-soldiers for the civ or inversely added back.
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