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[RoseHeart]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80245.0

That's a long list, most of them I didn't know, but several I did. All those names have a red mark, ban.

It works! A lot racist crap, a lot of violent threats, that shit is gone, good! But I...think we can do better. I have said and done some stupid shit in my past, held on to some ugly ideas that effected how I behaved. I've even been "canceled" which seemed like a big deal at the time, but time moved on. People change, James Gunn has probably tweeted shit 100x worse than what many or most, of these posters said. Whether you agree or not with him getting rehired by Disney and Marvel, his sense of humor has evolved more tact, his behavior has changed with time.

Isn't it time we give some of these guys another shot? I know at least one that wishes they could return, I bet they are not the only one that would do a lot with another opportunity.

[wierd]

Toady is actually very lenient.

He goes way out of his way to warn and temp mute people to convince them to abandon thier wicked ways.

Hes warned me more than once, when I have been suckered into flamewars.  I prefer not to engage/act that way anyway.. but the fact I am still around is testament to the toad's long suffering and patience.

At some point, there is a point he stops being tolerant or hopeful for your cure, and he acts to protect the community.

This forum has been going for more than 15 years. That list is shockingly short for a forum as old as this one.

Is it a shame some old, well remembered names are in that list? Abolutely.

Is that on Toady?  No. Its not.

[NullForceOmega]

No.  The severity of the penalty is equivalent to it's rarity, while that list appears long it also extends across nearly six years, meaning the total number of persons banned compared to the number of active users is very, very low.

It takes either a consistent, observable pattern of behavior or a substantial violation of the forum guidelines to end up banned (unless it's a bot), and I'm pretty sure that most people here will agree that perma-bans have contributed greatly to keeping the community welcoming and open to most discussions.

Finally, Toady is the moderator here, and most of us would prefer that he have the time and peace of mind to continue his mad passion project rather than wrangle cats.

[Chevaleresse]

personally after interacting with a few people with the big red mark after their name, i'm inclined to trust Toady's judgement here. weird said basically everything I would, otherwise.

[Reverie]

I can't really speak for Toady, but based on what I've seen, I can't imagine he'd have enough time to manage individual appeals and whatever potential drama they could risk inviting. In a community with more moderators, maybe, but not here.

[nenjin]

Yeah. Toady has taken the time to tell me to chill out in the past rather than ban me. If he thinks a ban is warranted I don't see any reason to disagree with him. I wouldn't put up with anyone using my house as a platform for their bullshit either.

[Man of Paper]

Lol bro just go run your own forum so you can be the admin you so desperately want to be

[Dorsidwarf]

As someone with prior community administrative experience, the fact that Bay12 has only had to issue 45 permanent bans in the last ten years speaks wonders as to the patience/leniency of the site administrator... and the general kindness/maturity of the community. I checked the permanent ban logs of another community I'm in and there've been 9,826 permanent bans over roughly the same time period, in a similarly sized and active space.

The onus for stuff like this is pretty much on the person who got banned showing that they've changed enough from how they were that got them banned, though this can be pretty hard for a standalone forum like Bay12forums. Ultimately though this really seems like a direct message conversation that ought to be had with Toady or other applicable forum staff than a grandstand GD thread to everyone else.

And finally, while of course its always regrettable not being able to come back to a social space you enjoyed but arent welcome in any more... it's part of moving on with life.

[Man of Paper]

Oh no, don't tell him to contact Toady, he's done it before about perfectly inane crap and postured like he was a voice of the people. If toady ever gives up developing DF I'm blaming it solely on roseheart's shoulders for pegging him with needless messages.

He doesn't understand that this niche forum is no more than a sidenote for toady, who I hear is working on something big nowadays. Or that he's not a big player on the forum. Or that the forum doesn't need any big players.

What he's doing, again, is looking somewhere where there isn't an issue, saying "yes I can make an issue out of this", doing so, then jumping in with "solutions". Honestly I'd talk some more shit if I didn't think there was an actual problem roseheart needs to work out with himself. One that preferably isn't solved in a thread on bay12

[Dorsidwarf]

Oh no, don't tell him to contact Toady, he's done it before about perfectly inane crap and postured like he was a voice of the people. If toady ever gives up developing DF I'm blaming it solely on roseheart's shoulders for pegging him with needless messages.

He doesn't understand that this niche forum is no more than a sidenote for toady, who I hear is working on something big nowadays. Or that he's not a big player on the forum. Or that the forum doesn't need any big players.

What he's doing, again, is looking somewhere where there isn't an issue, saying "yes I can make an issue out of this", doing so, then jumping in with "solutions". Honestly I'd talk some more shit if I didn't think there was an actual problem roseheart needs to work out with himself. One that preferably isn't solved in a thread on bay12

Oh dear, I didn't realise he was a regular trouble-rouser. Thought he was just an irate friend of someone who got banned for being repeatedly dumb or something.

[Vector]

We've had this convo before, yes. Toady gives many warnings and usually only bans somebody after they have repeatedly flouted moderation.

Roseheart, tempbanning does happen in the form of muting. Somebody breaks the forum rules, gets some time to cool off and think about what they did, and then they get to come back. People who get permabanned are usually banned after repeatedly making it clear that they have decided to use this space in a way that harms other users or Toady's ability to just, have a normal life.

This is not court. Being told, "please do not come back to this particular Waffle House" is not the same as being exiled from all community, i.e. social death. It is extremely different from real death.


I used to work at a school where some students were asked to leave mid-year for making "credible threats" of a school shooting. I really hope that they have changed, and grown up, but I also don't want those particular students in my classroom anymore, because that would mean that they had made their threat and were told by the authorities in charge that that was worth a slap on the wrist and no meaningful penalties.

Note that they were not given jail time or excluded from all schools. They were simply asked not to come back to that particular school.

Everyone makes mistakes but there needs to be consequences for threatening behavior. It is OK for Toady to set boundaries regarding what behavior he won't permit in the online space that he has personally built.

I was stalked by someone on this forum and they weren't banned because the stalking wasn't in public, rather via PMs. Toady resolved the situation to my satisfaction by telling the person to stop being a creeper, and eventually they left the forums on their own (I haven't seen them post in any context for 10 years).

The point is: yeah, maybe folks want to come back, but usually when people are banned, it's because they've acted in such a way that either they need to be banned or someone else who has done nothing wrong would have to leave. If the guy who wanted to pay me for tech support with photos of his girlfriend's tits (note, this is a different individual than the stalker) were allowed to become a regular commenter again, I'm pretty sure I'd go back to exclusively posting in the Mafia boards and letting the rest of you all deal with your own social problems.

[Man of Paper]

Oh man, what if this is a play to get his alts unbanned so he can artificially boost activity numbers in his forum games

[None]

Generally speaking, if you get banned, you're not allowed to have alts. I don't know what your axe to grind is, but maybe cool your beans, yeh?

[delphonso]

Agreed with None - it'd be hilarious if you ended up getting banned in a thread talking about loosening banning, though.

I think everyone's remarks here are strong arguments against lifting bans. People can always make alts, if they really have changed and want to return - I believe the only tracking is through IP and email, which are easy enough to get around, should you desire to.

Finally, most of the bans here are for bigotry and calls to violence - which people can surely recover from (I don't think the large increase in bans in 2016 happened in a vaccuum), but are also serious topics that should be associated with consequence.

[RoseHeart]

Yeah the whole alts thing is one side of it, the people that are still gone are the one's that respected that rule.

Man, a lot can change in 6 months. Or like 5 years? Forget about it. If you make the term long enough, then it's not really a game of whack a mole. Especially if you see this list as "short", multiple years and you bonk them and their gone. Hey, I bring this up because I have been forgiven in the past and I know the effect it had on me. I know that "former trouble makers" are often the ones first to correct the "new trouble makers". And often the one's that carry a tone they will actually listen too. Peace.