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Author Topic: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious  (Read 32984 times)

EuchreJack

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #210 on: March 18, 2022, 09:02:09 am »

They also have sailing?

Criptfeind

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #211 on: March 18, 2022, 09:05:26 am »

I don't see the relevance of that but yeah. They also have sailing.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #212 on: March 18, 2022, 09:14:10 am »

I guess the relevance being - they can't do explicitly stealthy things, like sitting for a few months in your backyard before attacking, or attacking in the stealth phase of the turn resolution. But in some ways they're functionally stealthy - with glamour, sailing, and high map movement, they can concentrate in home territory without you being able to see it, before striking into remote provinces that most other troops would need to laboriously fight their way to.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #213 on: March 18, 2022, 09:25:09 am »

"Stealth phase of the turn resolution"? There isn't a particularly different part of the turn for the resolution of stealth attacks, stealth movements and attacks happen at the same time and in conjunction with normal movement. Are you perhaps thinking of magical phase movement and attacks?

Also agreed that the combination of glamor+sailing+high map move+underwater allows them to do a decent elfing if they wish. The other side of the coin of stealth though is the defensive capability of the unit, units going into hiding are hidden before the magic phase, so they get to avoid teleportation and remote attack spells, which has been a pretty big deal with Ys so far, I've killed a decent number of Morgens via teleporting counter thugs into them thus far, something normal elves can fairly easily avoid.

That's what I was talking about with the big difference between a normal stealth attack, which can be risky sorta if you are at risk of being forced to retreat for sure, vs what'd be a suicide mission for a non stealthy unit teleporting behind enemy lines.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 09:28:04 am by Criptfeind »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #214 on: March 18, 2022, 09:39:34 am »

All this time I was convinced there was a separate phase for sneaky attacks (or maybe there was one in Dom3 or 4?).
But turns out they are just resolved conditionally either in the magic phase (i.e. sneaky units will join in on any magic-borne attack) or the regular combat phase.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #215 on: March 18, 2022, 09:46:31 am »

Ah, interesting, I had no idea they would join in with magical phase attacks. Is that only if they are attacking the province they are currently in, or can units on sneak and attack join in magical phase attacks as well?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #216 on: March 18, 2022, 09:56:34 am »

I don't know, actually. That's all illwiki says on the topic (which is still more than the manual does).
Some testing would be in order.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 10:03:49 am by Il Palazzo »
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Karlito

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #217 on: March 18, 2022, 10:06:52 am »

There's also the rather opaque movement-priority/cancelling rules. Two armies ordered into each other's adjacent provinces will usually not just pass each other but both will fight in one or the other province. Stealthy forces already in a province, can attack it to prevent an army in it from moving out, though there's some kind of size comparison test that goes on.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #218 on: March 18, 2022, 10:11:07 am »

There's also the rather opaque movement-priority/cancelling rules. Two armies ordered into each other's adjacent provinces will usually not just pass each other but both will fight in one or the other province. Stealthy forces already in a province, can attack it to prevent an army in it from moving out, though there's some kind of size comparison test that goes on.
That's what I had in mind with attacking in the stealth phase. But there's nothing along those lines in the manual - all movement happens before all non-magical battles (well, except assassinations).
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Criptfeind

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #219 on: March 18, 2022, 10:13:35 am »

Tested it out, sneak and attack units don't join in during magic phase attacks. Also there's a line on the wiki implying that glamoured units are automatically stealthy which might be the cause of some confusion, I'll drop a message in their channel I guess about that. actually looks like they are probably going to merge the stealth and stealthy pages and I'd guess that error will be removed when that happens so I'll wait until they do and see.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 10:21:12 am by Criptfeind »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #220 on: March 18, 2022, 10:22:50 am »

Tested it out, sneak and attack units don't join in during magic phase attacks. Also there's a line on the wiki implying that glamoured units are automatically stealthy which might be the cause of some confusion, I'll drop a message in their channel I guess about that. actually looks like they are probably going to merge the stealth and stealthy pages and I'd guess that error will be removed when that happens so I'll wait until they do and see.
Tested it as well. A scout in the same province did join in on the same battle with a cloud trapezing mage.

edit: just to make it clear - same province sneak+magic works; sneak and attack+magic doesn't.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 10:26:28 am by Il Palazzo »
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #221 on: March 18, 2022, 11:08:17 am »

"Attack Current Province" does indeed join in battles occurring in phase 11 ("Magic battles"). They won't initiate those battles, though - if you only have stealthy attackers and no magic ones, their attack resolves in phase 24 ("Resolve battles") as per normal. This has been how the resolution works out since at least Dom3. The manual doesn't explicitly say this, though, no.

And yeah, the lack of stealth is a pretty big deal when raiding with Morvarc'h. The high mobility, amphibiousness, and sailing help, but retaliation is a pretty big drawback, especially if you don't happen to end up on a lab where you can swap gear to respond to incoming countermeasures and/or do some shenanigans to teleport your raider out.

Glamour does not grant stealth. It adds +25 to it if you already have it. That's why fae troops are nigh universally +65 stealth. Signed, someone who spent far too much time learning about how these sorts of unit abilities interact so as to more "realistically" add things like gloso, giant parrot, and flying fish cavalry to NationGen.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #222 on: March 18, 2022, 09:42:09 pm »

Well, a pair of ranger boots, etc. can fix some of those issues...

E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #223 on: March 18, 2022, 10:38:56 pm »

Ranger Boots (and similar items) won't work, even if we weren't talking about cavalry. Those boost existing stealth. The only ways to grant stealth to non-stealthy units are Shademail or the artifact Amulet of the Doppleganger.

If you're using the mod inspector, the difference is "Stealth bonus" vs. "Stealth".
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 10:40:31 pm by E. Albright »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
« Reply #224 on: March 20, 2022, 06:35:51 am »

Requesting a 24 hour extension, as my Sunday is busier than normal.
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