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[Strongpoint]

Contrary to how I felt about Wagner mercs dying, I do feel somewhat sorry for these reservist sods. Drafted into a war they have no idea about, from their backwater villages.
I am more sad about the loss of the High School though. That's a loss to the Ukraine education system.

I feel sorry for the whole lot of them. I think I'd feel more fine if it was "necessary," but it feels much worse, because all these Russians did not die for any necessary reason. At any moment Putin could end the war, give up Crimea & Eastern Ukraine to save the lives of his people. Instead he just keeps sending in wave after wave of his own people to die for nothing. I think it's very symbolic that Wagner group spent so many lives capturing a fortified rubbish dump in Bakhmut. Ukraine will do what they must, but Putin has the choice to fall on his sword and end the actual slaughter he started to stop the pretend slaughter that never existed

Responding here to not flood the news thread with opinions


You blame Putin... I blame those very men who were evaporated in that building. If all of them refused to go to the war, this war would be over. What the hell would Putin do if after he announced the mobilization people went - "Lol, nope?"  Sent millions to prison? It wouldn't help to win the war and would require a separate army.

Those people weren't mindless automatons, they voluntarily came to Ukraine to kill and received exactly what wanna-be-murderers deserved. In fact, if any afterlife and karma exist, they should be grateful that their lives ended before they had a chance to murder anyone.

[Great Order]

You and I both know people don't work like that. It's a revelation I had a few years ago, and immediately realised was useless. At any moment humans could fix so much stuff by just behaving differently, but that's asking humans to stop acting like humans. May as well argue that we could end murder by simply refusing to kill anyone else.

EDIT: Just to clear it up, I'm not condoning or excusing their actions, I'm just saying that expecting millions of people to spontaneously, in the face of a lifetime of propaganda and under threat of punishment with no planning whatsoever, to go "Nope" is never going to happen.

[Il Palazzo]

Yeah. Don't you watch those interviews with the POWs? It's a society habituated to resigned conformism. Asking them to collectively turn on a dime and stand up for themselves is like asking a depressive to 'just stop being such a pussy'.

[bloop_bleep]

I think all death is regrettable. Even if killing someone is necessary for the sake of the self-defense, well I regret that it became necessary. The end result is the same.

[Loud Whispers]

Responding here to not flood the news thread with opinions

You blame Putin... I blame those very men who were evaporated in that building. If all of them refused to go to the war, this war would be over. What the hell would Putin do if after he announced the mobilization people went - "Lol, nope?"  Sent millions to prison? It wouldn't help to win the war and would require a separate army.

That's fair, but it's more a trouble of organising. A single person protesting in Russia just gets conscripted and sent to the front lines anyways, a single army deserter gets shot for mutinying anyways, the trouble is getting everyone to do so at the same time. I'm not too judgemental because not everyone there wants to be there; that's the whole point of a conscript army

Yeah. Don't you watch those interviews with the POWs? It's a society habituated to resigned conformism. Asking them to collectively turn on a dime and stand up for themselves is like asking a depressive to 'just stop being such a pussy'.

Reminds me of that one depressing video where it's just one russian conscript smoking in a ditch surrounded by the dead bodies of other conscripts. No winter coats, no guns, no food, no fuel, no purpose, just being sent into a trench to wait for a while until you're shelled. Can't retreat or you'll get shot, can't go forwards because you'll get shot. At least the Ukrainians are getting better at finding novel ways to induce Russian surrenders, e.g. surrendering to a drone is not something I thought many people thought would even be possible

[EuchreJack]

Thanks for moving this discussion out of the News thread.

I blame Putin.
For one thing, he certainly does NOT sympathize with any of the people in the military that he is sending off to die. They certainly are NOT his people. Those he has any real attachment or respect do NOT get sent to Ukraine. He keeps those close to home, where they can keep him in Power.

I think we can lump many of the Russian Conscripts in the Victim category of the Russian Aggression. They're basically dead the second they're conscripted.

[Starver]

Umming and ahing over whether this is News or Emotional... Probably the former, but with it already being part of the latter's chatter (and any further actual responses will immediately tending that way) I thought I'd save the time and effort...

A couple of news articles (sharing many details) look at the fallout from the New Year's attack by the HIMARS.

Notable are the satellite images, which seem to show no gross structural damage to buildings beyond the site itself, with the wonders of modern missioe tech (when it works/is used properly!) contrasting with carpet-bombing techniques of prior conflicts - but that resolution/sharpness of image ('commercial' level, probably not the top notch stuff that the various intelligence agencies get to see) can't rule out many windows blown out, or more...

And the unsurprising claims that it was the soldiers' own faults (for using mobile phones "within range of Ukrainean assets"), leading to counter-recriminations about their commanders, etc...  And, really, given how deep into the Russian-held corridor that is, I think it'll be a bit more than just some vague RF triangulation from the other side of the front line. Probably a quite different intelligence-coup/secrecy-failure, that may or may not involve mobile phones but in some quite different form of geolocating that isn't exactly hard to anticipate being a problem/opportunity.

[Random_Dragon]

On the general topic...

Spoiler: context (click to show/hide)

One of the artists I had on my watchlist on a couple sites is from Russia, and after the Patreon sanction stuff, dumped all their previously patreon-exclusive stuff on the other places they were on instead of moving to boosty like a couple other Russian artists have evidently done.

[martinuzz]

A couple of news articles (sharing many details) look at the fallout from the New Year's attack by the HIMARS.

from the BBC article:

neither we nor our husbands wanted war; the entire West united against us to eliminate us and our children

Even if Russia were to admit defeat and withdraw from Ukraine..
How are we going to de-brainwash the Russian population? How are we going to stop a generation from growing up sincerely believing that we are the agressors that killed their daddies, brothers, sons?
We have to, somehow, or we'll end up with a nation hating us even without the need for state propaganda.

[Strongpoint]

Even if Russia were to admit defeat and withdraw from Ukraine..
How are we going to de-brainwash the Russian population? How are we going to stop a generation from growing up sincerely believing that we are the agressors that killed their daddies, brothers, sons?
We have to, somehow, or we'll end up with a nation hating us even without the need for state propaganda.

It is a neat psychological game. They know the truth. They are just too shy to tell it (usually). They know that it is a war of genocide and a (re)conquest, and they are proud of it.  But they are pissed that it is not going too well and angry at NATO because they help those Ukrainian untermenschen 

Earlier in this thread I posted a video with "Like it or not Russia is enlarging" It is their true mood. Sometimes it smashes through all that - "Russia is under attack" bullcrap.


How do you cure this kind of attitude? Just like Germans were cured. Moscow must become like Mariupol. Only then they may understand that war is a BAD thing. Sadly, Russian nukes make it impossible.

[Lord Shonus]

Russia's claims of NATO IMPERIALISM and such aren't for domestic consumption - a lot of the wailing and gnashing you hear now is people seizing on it to provide some meaning to what's happening, but they were never the primary target. It is propaganda intended for their Useful Idiots in the West, as well as nations in Africa and South America who strongly remember the imperialism of the last century.

[KittyTac]

My dad at least is just brainwashed. He genuinely doesn't believe there is a genocide. I have cut ties to vatnik "friends" so I don't know about others.

I do want him to suffer for it.

[martinuzz]

That must be horrible for you, to be so divided amongst close family

[KittyTac]

That must be horrible for you, to be so divided amongst close family

At least I have successfully deprogrammed my mother. I had to socially-engineer her friend group to fall apart and get her banned from their group chat for it to stick. But it was all worth it.

[Loud Whispers]

Interesting intercepts from russian conscripts showing their fatalistic mindset

"Everything's fucked but I'll just get drunk on vodka and wait for my turn to die" mindset