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Author Topic: Twitter is Dead, Long Live X!  (Read 49538 times)

Il Palazzo

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2022, 09:19:37 am »

I'm an absolute Sage but only when I have the Thyme.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2022, 09:21:49 am »

That's a lot to parsely over. But we'd do minty to remember we're all cumin this together

Magmacube_tr

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2022, 11:16:05 am »

I am a bit mixed about this whole thing. But I do know one thing for certain.

It is that Max is under no obligation to respect or show tolerance to an ideology and a group of people who would gladly turn them against a wall and shoot. Respect is not a factor in this situation.

I can relate to them, I exist in a culture which doesn't even registers me as a valid person inside its moral code. Alongside that, I live hidden inside a religion that orders me dead. A significant portion of its adherents would have me hurled off an apartment and splatter.

There is hardly any reasoning with these kinds of people and doctrines. My hatred is not as intense as Max's, but I won't reconcile either; There is nothing about this to reconcile.

As far as I can see, there is no one true answer or one valid course of thought here. As with everything that concerns humans, there is a whole lot of fine nuance in this. Engaging with fascists may be appopriate or futile in different situations. It may or may not pay off.

Such is life I guess? I dunno.
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Rolan7

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2022, 11:38:41 am »

Quote
And now I am confident that you know next to nothing about people you hate. The use of bigoted labels like cishets proves it.
Pffff, yeah okay XD  I'm definitely taking you very seriously now.

Like trust me, there are secret places where hurt queer people congregate and blow off steam about the daily bigotry of "normal" people, and the words we use are a lot ruder than cishet.  What an astounding display of fragility.  Maybe you shouldn't be clamoring for free speech if you're so easily offended by clinical terms.  Perhaps you need a safe space?

That's a lot to parsely over. But we'd do minty to remember we're all cumin this together
:o lewd!!

It's also just mind-boggling to me that people can call Twitter an echo-chamber.  Good luck expressing any opinions without being bombarded with low-effort quips - it's what the platform is optimized for.  It's not a place for productive discussion.  It twists otherwise reasonable people into base attention seekers, mechanically.

It's also still a platform for every hateful bigot, and I'm talking genocidal fucks, who has the two brain cells necessary to avoid making deliberate calls for violence.  Dumbass leftists get banned for threatening to "eat the rich" (or in one case, "do a Carthage" on someone for insulting their friend's mom) just like dipshits like Alex Jones get banned for "X is literally a demon and it would be great if someone helped God kill them".  It's a platform based on a weird gimmick, and it has a little utility, but it is an awful place to try to reason with people.

Anyway sorry for interrupting the meme-ing, here's my contribution:
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Strongpoint

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2022, 12:17:44 pm »

Quote
This is basically telling a victim of domestic violence that they need to reconcile with their abuser.

Not a good analogy. No one is saying that Max should approach some homophobe and go like "You know, we are both wrong and let us try to find a common ground." 

It is also not a safe idea...

But when it is safe, it is a far better approach to go "You are wrong. I am not what you think. I am this and this. I do not wish for us to be enemies." especially if we are talking about a random person with no history of actual evil acts (and there are a big distance between doing evil acts, advocating for evil acts, and merely having stupid prejudices)


Quote
It is that Max is under no obligation to respect or show tolerance to an ideology and a group of people who would gladly turn them against a wall and shoot. Respect is not a factor in this situation.

Respect is earned, not given so no one has such an obligation. Tolerance, on the other hand, is rather useful for the normal functionality of society. If you don't show tolerance - don't expect one. It is that simple.

It is freaking easy to tolerate opinions you find fine. Tolerance makes sense only when you actively dislike those opinions. And tolerance doesn't mean silence. For example, tolerance never stopped me from saying outright blasphemous things straight in the face of religious persons when I found it necessary.

Oh, sometimes I wish to silence all religious propaganda so hard...
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Strongpoint

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2022, 12:45:47 pm »

Quote
Like trust me, there are secret places where hurt queer people congregate and blow off steam about the daily bigotry of "normal" people, and the words we use are a lot ruder than cishet.  What an astounding display of fragility.

*Rolls eyes*

I have been called a Nazi, a liberast*, a stinky gay (usually for confronting homophobes), transphobe, misogynist, feminist's c***licker, satanist and many, many more words. 

*Russian slur combining liberal and gay-pedophile in one word

I couldn't care less about any stupid label someone tries to put on me. Words like "cishet" stink of hating people not for actions, not even for views or opinions but for their very nature and this type of labels, quite frankly, disgust me. But it has nothing to do with fragility.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2022, 01:37:20 pm »

Wall of text!


TLDR: Gotta attack the ideology of oppression against LGBTQ with information and ideas whenever safely possible. Avoid situations and people where you may be in danger. Take any opportunity you can to talk.

And mind you, I'm talking about religious people in the USA, within my sphere of vision. I have no experience elsewhere.
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McTraveller

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2022, 02:20:41 pm »

Yeah that religious view (not unique to the US, by the way) is based on tons of misunderstanding, at least in the Christian sphere of thought.

Spoiler: TLDR (click to show/hide)

I second the notion that you can't have reasoned discourse about it when being physically threatened though.
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brewer bob

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2022, 02:35:11 pm »

I hope I won't regret participating in this discussion... But here goes:

But when it is safe, it is a far better approach to go "You are wrong. I am not what you think. I am this and this. I do not wish for us to be enemies." especially if we are talking about a random person with no history of actual evil acts (and there are a big distance between doing evil acts, advocating for evil acts, and merely having stupid prejudices)

In the case of an ignorant bigot and not an actual fascist, sure, they might change their mind. But it should never be expected (nor be the responsibility) of persons whom the hate targets. It's not their job to educate bigots.

Outright fascists/nazis on the other hand should be denied all platforms to spread their hate and recruit new folk into their ranks. Again, this won't make them change their minds or go away, but it will make it harder for them to grow their numbers. (Nor does it touch the underlying issues of what cause the rise of fascism, but that's a much larger topic.)

The worst is when borderline fascists are invited to some political debates on TV with, let's say members of minorities, so that "both sides" will be represented. At least here this kind of shit has contributed very much to the normalizing of racist language (which would've been unthinkable ~15 years ago). Now even larger media outlets use certain terms coined from said fascists. This has been part of the tactics the new wave of the fascism/nazism (of the 2000s): participate in public debates, no matter what the topic derail it and start talking about immigration (for example).

Gotta attack the ideology of oppression against LGBTQ with information and ideas whenever safely possible. Avoid situations and people where you may be in danger. Take any opportunity you can to talk.

Also, as a reminder for those who participate in online debating/confronting with the fash: make sure your online persona can't be connected to your real life person. Those pieces of shit collect information about people on the "wrong side" (and have acted upon it).

Dunamisdeos

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #175 on: May 20, 2022, 02:49:42 pm »

I hope I won't regret participating in this discussion... But here goes:

In the case of an ignorant bigot and not an actual fascist, sure, they might change their mind. But it should never be expected (nor be the responsibility) of persons whom the hate targets. It's not their job to educate bigots.

Outright fascists/nazis on the other hand should be denied all platforms to spread their hate and recruit new folk into their ranks. Again, this won't make them change their minds or go away, but it will make it harder for them to grow their numbers. (Nor does it touch the underlying issues of what cause the rise of fascism, but that's a much larger topic.)

I completely agree with all of this, 100%. But I'd like to posit that while it is definitely unfair to say that an LGBTQ person should not have to be (Edit: primarily) responsible for educating people... there's not really another avenue for it to come from. It's not fair for someone to have to justify their own existence in that way, but this kind of fighting has to be done. I do what I can as a straight dude who has gained some relative understanding on the subject, but I'm never going to be the same as someone with a horse in the race, as it were.
 
Also, it's oddly fitting for this to tangent be discussed on a thread about social media, where a lot of this is perpetuated/echoed.
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Cathar

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #176 on: May 20, 2022, 06:48:44 pm »

Snoop

A couple opinions I have on the topic :
• It is not the job of a persecuted minority to educate bigots. True. But it is the job - I'd say even the only job- of activists. While I was politically active in the (radical?) left, everyone I worked with was far too pure to soil their hands with discussing with hostiles or neutral parties - so in the end, they remained among themselves and for the group I was on, infighted to their way to dissolution.
"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?
• Medias are absolutely complicit in the rise of fascism, and have been as long as I can remember. Even in old political debates from the 90', you had public figures protesting against that specific tendency. I think it was either Desproges or Servat who said something like that "they put a jew and an antisemite in the same room, and call it a balanced debate". But the era of mediatic monopoly is at its end. Activism now mostly occur on social medias, and we are under no obligation to leave the final word to the establishment.
• No matter what you do, remain anonymous. Doesn't matter where you stand on the political spectrum. Being nameless is your best protection against persecution.

heydude6

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #177 on: May 20, 2022, 07:09:57 pm »

Snoop

A couple opinions I have on the topic :
• It is not the job of a persecuted minority to educate bigots. True. But it is the job - I'd say even the only job- of activists. While I was politically active in the (radical?) left, everyone I worked with was far too pure to soil their hands with discussing with hostiles or neutral parties - so in the end, they remained among themselves and for the group I was on, infighted to their way to dissolution.
"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?

This is gold!

A key thing to take away from this though is that not all minorities are activists, and they don't have to be. If you are not committed to spreading the word of your cause, then you are fully within your right to kick someone out of your sight for saying inappropriate things. You're allowed to say "I'm too tired to deal with this shit" without further explanation, and sometimes it's even necessary if the asshole is persistent enough to drive even the most reasonable man to insanity.
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brewer bob

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #178 on: May 20, 2022, 07:25:05 pm »

"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I've had similar experiences when I was still active in the local "scene". Really frustrating discussions, infighting and such, but I won't delve further into that.
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