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Author Topic: Twitter is Dead, Long Live X!  (Read 51120 times)

Duuvian

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #345 on: June 19, 2022, 09:44:41 am »

I was going to post this a week ago but held off for some reason, sorry to bring it back around. I thought about it, and thought a cheap example of electric car to show it's possible wouldn't be a bad thing to post. Here's one for around $6000 retail (pre-import costs). GM is also involved in it.

I don't see myself ever not owning a car since I live about 30 minutes from town and want noting to do with town life.
And I don't really see wide spread electric car ownership within the next 30 or so years do to the massive cost of the things

https://www.businessinsider.com/gm-hong-guang-mini-ev-tesla-china-covertible-electric-car-2021-4?op=1

I read about it in another article a few months ago that said it's moddable with kits of some sort that can turn it into things like a food truck or some such if I remember correctly, though I may be misremembering.

I wonder if the US's $7500 electric vehicle tax rebate applies to those.

This article says the rebate might apply if they have mustered a Certificate of Conformity (for US road regulations I assume), though this second article is on a different model (and more expensive) by a different manufacturer.

https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/57683/chinese-electric-car-costing-6-000-approved-for-sale-in-the-u-s/

I think an individual can also import them if they have the vehicle inspected before shipping and follow that whole process that can be found on a .gov website somewhere. There are companies that specialize in that and shipping I think, though I've never inquired so I don't know how much it costs or how it works; I assume pickup would be in California. I also don't know if there are compatibility issues such as the charger. Basically I don't know how it works at all, but I was like "Ooooh a $6000 electric"
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King Zultan

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #346 on: June 20, 2022, 02:36:48 am »

Shipping something as big as a car would probably bring the price up as high as buying a new regular car, also I've heard things about converting regular cars to electric and from what I've heard it probably end up being cheaper if you already owned the car.
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Cathar

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #347 on: July 12, 2022, 04:35:45 am »

Aaaah, the twists and turns. When you put your hand in the cookie jar and get it stuck there. The most amusing now is Twitter refusing to terminate the deal. After the stress he has been putting Twitter's council through, I have no doubt they are enjoying every bit of that real life power trip.

Full disclosure : I said I never heard Ukrainian press mention Starlink before... well I have now. Get this : it has been approved for civilian purposes (so no military application at all). It will blast russian propaganda. It can only been used near proprietary antennas ( we will use it to the front line guys :') ), and Denis Davidov cannot use it and he lives in Kiev. It offers litterally zero benefit compared to normal internet.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 05:20:49 am by Cathar »
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Starver

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #348 on: July 12, 2022, 07:09:09 am »

Space junk travels at supersonic speeds
...not to detract from your point, but... That's a meaningless descriptor, as sound doesn't really travel at any speed (and much, much slower in the bits that have fringes of rarified exosphere/whatever) and does not do it justice. In LEO, where the Starlinks are, satellites travel at a velocity that, in atmosphere, would be roughly twice that considered hypersonic in an atmospheric projectile.

And there are certainly problems from space-junk. Partly for this reason, the orbits chosen for Starlink constellations are quite low (less line-of-sight coverage, more additional satellites needed, but deorbitting times <5 years[1]) compared to those of Iridium (66ish active satellites providing near total coverage, but idealised decay time could be[2] 10s of thousands of years, well beyond their useful life in other regards if not sent into decaying/outer-graveyard orbits while still capable of being so controlled).

Most interesting, as comparison, is the Iridium that was hit by the (defunkt) Kosmos in 2009 at hypervelocity closing speeds and made one of the few well-tracked debris fields (and I think the most significant of all the purely accidental ones). The combined mass of initial debris was ~1.5tonnes, well above the ISS. The scattering effect meant the ISS was prepared for debris in the vicinity (most notably in 2012), but such fragments of the debris was then more likely to deorbit itself naturally... I'm sure there's a good assessment of how much is still in a stable orbit ('high', circular, LEO), how much is just eccentric enough (initially up or down) to be troublesome but not yet retarded into re-entry at closest approach, what proportion has succumbed to the upper atmosphere after various passes.

Starlinks are 350kg (or less), each, not expected to last much more than those 5 years from the last self-boost[3] and are placed closer to the ISS (a future shell of "VLEO" Starlinks would be well below it) but in an orbit where comparatively little consistent traffic criss-crosses the shell apart from the many other Starlinks, with current tracking stipulations meaning that long-range forecasts of possible collisions are likely to provoke whichever of the sats can still be adjusted (if not both) to be so done well ahead of time. By no means without danger[4], but much shorter-term, making the instantaneous hazards (spread/deprecated over time, divided by mass, not overly multiplied by the number of responsible parties, but ...yes... multiplied by relative constellation sizes) possibly somewhat lower, without necessarily being too generous in that assessment.


Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to clarify on "supersonic", and I seemed to get sucked into the details. Many interesting details! Again. Maybe most of this best sits in the Space Thread, rather than the thread about deleting a thing that I never even use myself, but here it is now... ;)


[1] Depending on space/Earth weather fluctuations, some have suggested increased interactions with the atmosphere could deorbit more suddenly than expected for those not yet beyond their midlife when they start to encounter far less tenuous exosphere at their current part-decayed altitude, if their Krypton-based boosters/station-keepers fail. It's a bit of a crapshoot, which Musk clearly intends to ride by just firing more replacements back up to ~350 miles.

[2] Any number of failed-in-service Iridiums didn't take this long to deorbit, and others are 'obligingly' decaying quite nicely, thank you very much, so I'm quoting a clear top-end estimate here. Interestingly a "currently decaying" Iridium (or maybe a few of them, from the same batch) is helping with communications at the South Pole, last I heard. Being a polar-orbitting swarm, the coverage is limited but at least fairly usable, unlike the "mesh toroid" of the Starlink constellation, that isn't really capable of servicing the poles because of the local horizon and limits to range. But this is(/these are) in a decaying orbit, presumably no station-keeping or de-orbitting fuel left, but has been usefully providing communications for quite a while longer than you'd expect a Starlink to stay up there in similarly adjusted circumstances.

[3] Or the first one. I understand they're sent to <350 miles at first, spat out of the "bus" to spread them out a bit and then tested. Only those that function well are then commanded up to the 350ish-mile slots that time and trajectory best suites them. Those that failed immediately after de-bussing (or even failed to de-bus) are going to decay much earlier, with either active or passive deorbitting.

[4] And I'm sure there's plenty of room to imagine Musk going all actively Bond Villain and actively threatening/creating a Kesler-shell upon one touch of a button he handily keeps in his pocket, for some suitably Hollywood reason that he has been leading up to all this time, if only we had known his true motives..!
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Cathar

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #349 on: July 12, 2022, 07:35:29 am »

I edited my post after I noticed I had misread the comment I was responding to (I'm a dummy at times, gomen gomen).

It is clear that I am not an expert in that field, and even if it doesn't clog up the orbit with debris, my point was Starlink is a useless venture. It needs a massive ground receptor to function and can service only a very limited area. It is utterly useless in situations where usual internet cannot function. Contrary to what I read in this thread, its ground infrastructure can be shutdown anytime by the government lending its land to it (or in the case of Ukraine, by an artillery shot), and the whole system serves only its primary function of internet attention whoring.

Like the previous debacle who ended up by calling a national hero a pedophile because he would not wait for Musk to ship its custom submarine to save stranded kids, it is superfluous /redundant tech.

As for supersonic being a meaningless descriptor, I was of course using the term colloquially (as in, over 340m/s), altho that whole post is extremely interesting.

Starver

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #350 on: July 12, 2022, 09:07:32 am »

Looking at the edit times, I spent way too long on checking things (probably most of that time was spent on the Iridium/Kosmos stuff, the first actual satellite-on-satellite collision, and plenty of distracting graphics to view to illustrate the event) as I made sure I wasn't talking total rubbish just from memory... ;)


I disagree about Starlink being useless in the absence of 'standard' internet. An artilliary shell could take out an installation[1], but it can take out an exchange or a permanent cable link (probably found on a map, official/unofficial/purloined) much more easily/deliberately. With an unknown number of unknown-placed Starlink receivers (which can be moved, possibly without the rest-of-world subscriber-limitations imposed, or at least by further) that can be placed at the most tactically obscure spot within 100-150ft of the antenna (if they haven't supplied even longer cables) and then fed through any otherwise possible amount of patch cable and/or routers (main concerns being the power needs) to allow any C&C base, government emergency HQ, surveillance/lookout hideaway or 'even' a school-in-a-farmyard-basement as good an uninteruptable internet connection as they could hope for, and far better than the remains of the peacetime infrastructure (landline or ~4G...) that is probably degraded. By accident or design, as part of an attack or as a security/scorched-earth defensive measure.

I think it's actually a useful gesture. How it can be/is being used (opsec to prevent over-run units being looted intact?) I don't know. Perhaps more use is made of the propoganda of having them available, rather than trying to run the war (or what remains of the peace) through them to any significant amount. But far from utterly useless. Even with many possible caveats.

(If Russia were so threatened by it as to try ASAT countermeasures... That's be another thing entirely. If anything, it'd validate Starlink way above what I think its worth actually is, and violently annoy every other space-facing concern (including most nations) just for the sheer over-reach. It'd be maybe just a notch below using nukes to significantly attack in this way, or even part of it.)


I agree entirely about Elon being a total tool (<- meant to type "fool", but this too) insofar as his other stunts/spats like the whole submarine/"paedo-guy" thing. I'd generously consider the offer of the sub to be well-meaning (with a clear sideline in self-publicising), but rather than gracefully learn how it wasn't really a suitable solution, he then took umbrage at the rejection and publically engaged his mouth(/fingers) without first thinking. Perhaps a sign of how he has become a go-getter, and the risks arising from being compulsive/tenatious about certain goals, even as he's shown how it can get him into the position of being able to offer up an entire constellation of communications satellites whenever he feels like it.

Like many a powerful/influential figure, he aint no angel of perfection. I think there's worse out there, but definite character flaws/inverted utility in his psyche. Future history will tell where he/Bezos/etc lies on the scale of the pre-existing ultrarich. Carnegie, Gates, Wayne, Buffet, Maxwell, Zhang, Manso Musa, etc ( <- examples only: not in any order of philanthropy, not all yet/fully transparent to history, not all non-fictional)...
 



(I always go for 330m/s in back-of-the-envelope calculations, or even just ⅓km/s, because rarely is it 1 atmosphere and 20°C in the practical example and I might as well accept an easier to calculate-with ballpark figure until I have reason to know otherwise with any certainty. ;) May also be a legacy of the frequently cited 1100ft/s (itself slightly rounded) of premetrication, depending upon how someone fudged the 'simple' conversion.)



So, yeah. Twitter. Don't mess with it kids. Or billionaires. (Kids <-> Bilionaires, Kids <-> Twitter and Billionaires <-> Twitter. Every whichway combination, but for many different reasons.)

[1] I'd be more worried if Russia converted radar-homing missiles/ELINT surveillance to specifically find Starlink dish frequencies, though, if it seemed like a cost worth paying to do so. Mitigated perhaps by the highly-steered 'beam' of communications traffic that might be difficult to spot whilst not in conjunction with ground-box and any satellite(s) it is actively talking to.
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Cathar

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #351 on: July 12, 2022, 09:38:56 am »

Quote
But far from utterly useless. Even with many possible caveats.

Maybe you are seeing things differently than I do, but from my point of view, the tech is completely redundant.

1°) For military use, it has not been approved. It will not help soldiers.
2°) The city it has been deployed in are already serviced with landline internet, and the coverage it is providing is abysmally small, centered around its stationary receptors.
3°) It provides absolutely no security against anything that can threaten landline internet
3° a) Power goes out, Starlink goes out
3° b) Government says no starlink, starlink goes out
3° c) Jamming trucks go near town, Starlink goes out (but landline stays up, ironically)
4°) It creates additional security concerns about signal interception.

What functions does it serves, I have no idea.

My opinion on the other ultra rich...I don't have any really. Buffet makes me laugh, and as for Bezos, he has the basic decency not to pretend to be  a philanthropist while he does union busts, and he is only as powerful as the governments allow him to be, so I appreciate him for being a living argument for a strong European Union.

Edit : As I look around, I notice that, indeed, space junk is still an ongoing concern about Starlink (I'm not the only one to come to that conclusion, I thought I was going mad). Band monopoly and sky pollution are two other concerns that are ongoing.

Edit 2 : Also just so we're clear : my gripe is not with the mega rich. I really don't look at the plate of others and short of the red army marching on Paris, I will not live to see socialism take effect in my country. I have come to terms with that many many years ago.
More humbly, what I'm doing is looking at an evil clown getting a deserved 1 billion dollar pimp slap accross the face and waiting to see if he'll get that 44 billion dollar "and don't come back" beat up on top of it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 10:08:14 am by Cathar »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #352 on: July 12, 2022, 11:04:21 am »

:D
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Starver

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #353 on: July 12, 2022, 11:08:51 am »

#s 1, 2, 3b: That's up to how it's handed out/managed locally.
#3a: Local generation sufficient, no need to worry about an exchange down the road/across a front-line being blacked-out or plugs pulled.
#3c: Not sure, covered that with frequency-targetting weaponry/etc, not sure blanket jamming works much on directed communication. (Targetted spade-blades can hit a landline, and it stays down even as you redeploy the spades elsewhere.)
#4: Downlink is probably interceptable (but not understandable), but uplink should still be on a tight-beam. With sufficiently spoof-proofed mutual encryption negotiation (if not designed in, whythehellnot? ...if only for commercial reasons...) all that 'enemy interception' ought to discover is that someone is being talked to somewhere within a given footprint/coverage area[1]. Possibly.


I'm not saying that they are negligable as space-junk, BTW, just roughly enumerating the mitigating factors. (Ditto with astronomical pollution, though I believe an Iridium-flare-like effect has been considered and built into their design to be counteracted. e.g. angling the solar array to reduce any solar reflection down to Earth[2].) Probably could be better (in both regards), but it seems that the considerations have been... considered. And at least some deployment options may be in relation to what that revealed as potential issues.


The absolute position is LANTAOAA, and also it was never my intention to become an apologist, just that it's more of a Curate's Egg than a total waste of (outer-)space. I fear for an overcrowding of space-junk (and subsequent debris), but I'm not quite as concerned about Musk's basic plans as other eventualities... Not enough to invalidate the (probably self-promoting) gifting of user-units to Ukraine in case they find them useful. (And if he hadn't done this, I'm sure the immediate future would have had nearly an identical number of new Starlinks deployed up there, whatever the true problem with that.)

I think Musk is a dick, who has no need for me to pull my punches on that score. One who has floated to the top by luck, opportunity and a large amount of good judgements where it actually matters, but the 15-dimensional chess strategy behind squandering luck and opportunity over (relatively minor) bad judgements eludes me. Whether it's a Grand Plan or Moments Of Madness, the optics from down here in the deep grass are confusing, and yet the eagle soars. For now.



(PPE: And I see an Edit2 now. Was replying only with the first Edit in mind. But I think my last paragraph answers enough of that without adding more than this simple cover-note to say I've seen it.)

[1] Depends upon how rigorously pseudo-encoded the downlink data is. Done badly you might be able to count the number of individuals using from within an area (maybe the 15²miles of the most restrictive 'roaming') or time the handovers between different satellites to narrow down where the "best centre" might be for any link that can be individually identified across three or four such changeovers, if you had the desire and means to use a "polyamorous listening mode" to log extended signals and read between the lines. But if I were designing the system, I'd have made sure a periodic polymorphic handshake (and possibly even pumping dummy-data into gaps and fringes) would safeguard user privacy at this level (before even considering milspec safeguards), as well as thoroughly renegotiated sky-to-ground encryption of packet contents and basic headers. There'd be no protocol equivalent of "Cheers, user ABC123, currently located at X.xxx°N Y.yyg°E, for the current upload of the streaming file LiveViewOfEnemyDeployments.asf" in anything like open broadcast.

[2] Initially, they're deployed flat-to-Earth ('open book'), which seem to make the initial just-deoyed crowd of sibling launchees noticable, but then in long-term operation it's changed to vertically up ('shark's fin') in the best compromise rotation for particle avoidance and sun-soaking, and then the most likely surface to reflect down is the small face on the opposite side (which may have been painted/anodised/textured more dull than the bare casing would be) and apparently this lowers any 'flare' potential.
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King Zultan

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #354 on: July 13, 2022, 01:54:57 am »

Why don't we just let this thing die, Elon isn't buying twitter and twitter stills sucks so let us let this thread rest in peace.
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but anyway, if you'll excuse me, I need to commit sebbaku.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #355 on: July 13, 2022, 07:26:36 am »

Admittedly it is fucking hilarious that Elon is losing so much money not buying twitter like lmao

heydude6

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #356 on: July 13, 2022, 01:24:29 pm »

It'll be interesting to see if twitter actually forces Elon to buy it. The eventual legal battle will turn out to be very spicy I'm sure.
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TD1

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #357 on: July 13, 2022, 04:23:53 pm »

Nothing could ever be as spicy as the Depp-Heard trial.

That one had a lasting impact on human culture, introducing new phrases and concepts. Notably: 'mega-pint.' It also briefly featured Elon.

I fail to see what new spice he could bring now.
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Starver

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #358 on: July 13, 2022, 04:31:56 pm »

Whoever controls the spice controls the Twitterverse?
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EuchreJack

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Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #359 on: July 13, 2022, 05:14:53 pm »

Lawsuit has officially started! Hype Time!
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