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Author Topic: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?  (Read 2254 times)

bool1989

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I'm planning to make a cold, evil world, where my dwarfs will spend most of their time underground in the caves.

I'm planning to bring blocks for walling off the caves, and non-herbivore animals that don't need food to live. I'll also bring plenty of wood for beds. 

Any advice for what I should bring and what I should right away upon embark?

My world gen always has 5k embark points.

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RLS0812

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 02:05:28 pm »

I would say a LOT of cheap food and booze.
 I find cats are an excellent food animal to have since they don't require anything special AND can provide a lot of bone bolts :)

Do you plan on breaking into the upper caverns as soon as possible for wood and water needs ?
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bool1989

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 02:07:35 pm »

Yes, I'm planning to wall off parts of the cave for farming.

I have a site picked out that's a terrifying glacier volcano.

I've yet to actually start the embarkation process, though. 
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Ziusudra

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2022, 01:07:25 am »

There's a DFHack for that, deep-embark - if the surface is that bad, it makes sense that they would travel through the caverns. (You wouldn't hav to use DFHack all the time, just until after a successful cavern embark.)

Herbivores can graze in the caverns, though that is a bit more area to defend - and you'll get two with the wagon anyway, though you could just slaughter them after maybe milking them.

Turkeys don't need plants to graze, give lots of eggs, and grow to full size in 2 years - similarly peafowl grow to max in 1 year but produce fewer eggs.

6 picks and 1 axe (or 5&2) so everyone can hav a weapon to start, and faster digging of a defensible position.
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anewaname

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2022, 10:59:34 am »

"Terrifying" can mean different things, so plan ahead for deadly infections, deadly rains, deadly fog, deadly undead, etc..

Be sure to note if any area of the embark mentions an aquifer, because the caverns can have a limited and finite amount of water and it is possible to run out of water on a small embark. Bring several lye, and if you can afford it, a bar of soap.

Bring some materials for building magma-proof gates, mechanisms, and pumps (nickel or iron-bearing ore, some bags of sand...)

Bring enough logs so in the first week of your embark, you can put 4 or 5 of the dwarfs into a squad equipped with wood shields and a wood axe. In the first months, get them better equipped (bone armors, mail shirt, and metal weapon) so these guys can survive longer if ambushed and can rescue each other.

The other thing you need to bring to the embark is your absolute and total belief that anything can go wrong and that doors should be everywhere.
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RLS0812

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 11:12:07 am »

On a side note: livestock will eat tendrils (for some reason) if at some point you plan on building on the surface and that stuff is growing.
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eerr

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2022, 11:43:05 am »

Cave-in traps work on even the deadliest forgotten beast. (falling objects are one-hit kills)

if you find forgotten beasts constantly roaming, just fill the outer caverns with a hundred statues.

As long as there are no critters in range, they'll spend months destroying buildings.
It's the perfect safety net, if you don't mind the red text from toppling a hundred statues.

Some caverns have water cutting across the edge, making a defensible area.
It's also possible to find isolated embarks, where a cavern layer is cut off from the rest of the caverns by water.
That makes it far less likely a forgotten beast will infiltrate.
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Salmeuk

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2022, 01:14:58 pm »

if you are building (as I do) amongst the various caverns, fitting your fortress rooms in whatever rock there is to build with, I highly suggest picking a "1st Floor" for your logistics. So, instead of having a hundred different pathways between each section of the fortress, you instead send all traffic towards this main floor, and back to the remaining sections of the fortress.

If the cavern is full of water, look for a 4x4 stalactite and build your staircases there.

Of course you can simply build above the open spaces if you want to avoid the hassle of squeezing a fortress into that mess.

When interacting with cavern trees that you cannot cut down, either due to lack of access, or sometimes the trunk is drowned in water, you can build new constructions on top of the upper branches without an issue. Also, a ballista shot will immediately destroy any tree regardless of where it hits, so that can be used to clear specific inaccessible trees.

Troglodytes are annoying AF.

if you can find marble caverns, with vegetation present, they are some of the most beautiful natural features in the game. The contrast between the white stone and the various gems, metals, inclusions, and formations, these caverns are a sort of aesthetic paradise.
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bool1989

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2022, 02:29:35 pm »

There's a DFHack for that, deep-embark - if the surface is that bad, it makes sense that they would travel through the caverns. (You wouldn't hav to use DFHack all the time, just until after a successful cavern embark.)

Herbivores can graze in the caverns, though that is a bit more area to defend - and you'll get two with the wagon anyway, though you could just slaughter them after maybe milking them.

Turkeys don't need plants to graze, give lots of eggs, and grow to full size in 2 years - similarly peafowl grow to max in 1 year but produce fewer eggs.

6 picks and 1 axe (or 5&2) so everyone can hav a weapon to start, and faster digging of a defensible position.

I'm planning to bring non grazer animals, so turkeys, dogs, cats, and pigs. Any mule animals will be pitted to keep the fortress safe from reanimating grazers. 

I'll also bring all miners with the picks and an axe for underground trees.

Question: cats kill vermin, do I need to worry about vermin reanimating? Or is that just for larger beasts?

"Terrifying" can mean different things, so plan ahead for deadly infections, deadly rains, deadly fog, deadly undead, etc..

Be sure to note if any area of the embark mentions an aquifer, because the caverns can have a limited and finite amount of water and it is possible to run out of water on a small embark. Bring several lye, and if you can afford it, a bar of soap.

Bring some materials for building magma-proof gates, mechanisms, and pumps (nickel or iron-bearing ore, some bags of sand...)

Bring enough logs so in the first week of your embark, you can put 4 or 5 of the dwarfs into a squad equipped with wood shields and a wood axe. In the first months, get them better equipped (bone armors, mail shirt, and metal weapon) so these guys can survive longer if ambushed and can rescue each other.

The other thing you need to bring to the embark is your absolute and total belief that anything can go wrong and that doors should be everywhere.

I'm not sure why soap is important. is it because of evil weather?

Why advise bringing magma safe stuff? I'm not really planning to do anything with magma other than setting up the initial magma forges and smelters.

I'll see about making some mail armor. is it cheaper than plate?

Cave-in traps work on even the deadliest forgotten beast. (falling objects are one-hit kills)

if you find forgotten beasts constantly roaming, just fill the outer caverns with a hundred statues.

As long as there are no critters in range, they'll spend months destroying buildings.
It's the perfect safety net, if you don't mind the red text from toppling a hundred statues.

Some caverns have water cutting across the edge, making a defensible area.
It's also possible to find isolated embarks, where a cavern layer is cut off from the rest of the caverns by water.
That makes it far less likely a forgotten beast will infiltrate.


Can't forgotten beasts swim?

if you are building (as I do) amongst the various caverns, fitting your fortress rooms in whatever rock there is to build with, I highly suggest picking a "1st Floor" for your logistics. So, instead of having a hundred different pathways between each section of the fortress, you instead send all traffic towards this main floor, and back to the remaining sections of the fortress.

If the cavern is full of water, look for a 4x4 stalactite and build your staircases there.

Of course you can simply build above the open spaces if you want to avoid the hassle of squeezing a fortress into that mess.

When interacting with cavern trees that you cannot cut down, either due to lack of access, or sometimes the trunk is drowned in water, you can build new constructions on top of the upper branches without an issue. Also, a ballista shot will immediately destroy any tree regardless of where it hits, so that can be used to clear specific inaccessible trees.

Troglodytes are annoying AF.

if you can find marble caverns, with vegetation present, they are some of the most beautiful natural features in the game. The contrast between the white stone and the various gems, metals, inclusions, and formations, these caverns are a sort of aesthetic paradise.

I actually prefer to have more natural, winding fortresses. Having everything centered upon a single staircase is kind of boring. Part of the reason why I want to build my fort in the caves is that the natural topography will inform the shape of the fortress.

But thanks for your advice, regardless.

Also I use phoebus graphics.
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anewaname

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2022, 12:14:00 am »

Soap (and water) are more important in evil biomes. Even if the starting seven dwarfs successfully get underground before something bad happens to them, migrants may be exposed to something dangerous and without soap they may all die in the hospital with their eyes bleeding and their muscles rotting from infection..."

Magma-safe stuff is useful for controlling magma. You mentioned having a useful volcano...

"Mail shirt" and "breastplate" are different, check the wiki. So, mail shirts cost less metal, cover more body, but give less protection; but that protection is enough to stop painful cuts from claws/bites so your dwarfs will fall over in pain less often so they will have a better chance of surviving the fight with the undead turkeys you might receive when winter ends.
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muldrake

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2022, 01:38:29 pm »

If you don't fudge it by literally spawning underground, you want to get underground as immediately as possible.  So your first intermediate step to getting into the caverns is to dig underground immediately.  Deconstruct wagon.  To make sure it goes smoothly, manually mark all items for dumping, set a dump zone with two squares, one of them over the quantum stockpile one or more z layers down.  Use the orders menu to set dwarves to collect refuse from outdoors (or they won't dump).  Dump everything (dig out around the quantum stockpile and do NOT have anyone standing on that square because at some point they will take an anvil to the head.

Get EVERYONE underground, wall off the outside world, and start digging exploratory shafts.  I usually have a trade depot somewhere it can be blocked from direct access to the fort, especially when visitors to the area are a bunch of dodgy characters.  Another reason it makes sense to open the caves early is you start getting cave plants and trees growing everywhere.
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Insert_Gnome_Here

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2022, 05:50:34 pm »

If you're lucky you won't be far from magma so you don't have to worry about either charcoal or hauling ores 150 z-levels
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Immortal

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2022, 08:13:57 pm »

High risk for fun, but best to set you up, is bring 1 pick and 1 axe, dig under and hollow a 3x9 space. Deconstruct wagon and 'D'ump everything manually into one square just beside the wagon. Bring wood and bituminous coal and bronze. In the 3x9 build 2 hatches (faster to place hatch then build a floor). Cover the stairs. Once the wagon is piled in 1 spot, channel down there, this drops the contents down 1z. Put a hatch over top the hole and lock them. Then make beds, burn 1 wood to charcoal, smelt bit coal into fuel and make full set of bronze picks and axes, make shields and chain chainmail. Everyone should embark with proficient mining and soldiering (dodge, axe, fighter, shield)

Press gang style build out. Everyone goes down with axes, scout, fight as needed. Then change to seal up what has the easiest chokepoints for least work. You can feed 7 dwarves with a 4x8 plot easily. Plus tight packed beds and shops you need like 12x12. You can plan your expansions slower from there.

A tip to expanding in dangerous areas, build a door inside where you want to punch through, build walls on each side of door and then deconstruct the outer wall, and now you have a safe exit. Same thing explore as a group, secure the area. Since you have amateurs you need to fight with your numbers to prevent injuries. A single soldier is too high risk in my experience.

Best of luck! Update us how much fun you have! Remember, you can reclaim sites too...
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NordicNooob

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2022, 11:50:01 am »

I personally wouldn't focus too heavily on miners, since you'll be using pre-mined space for a lot of things. You could also bring a bunch of ore and whatnot and erect a quick wall around your wagon (preferably with a roof) so you don't have to be forced to quickly haul stuff down to the caverns.

These are the steps I'd take for a rapid cavern fort in a hostile embark:
1. Ice hole. Small room just under the surface, get everything living below the surface so that even if wildlife wanders close to the wagon, they won't see any fresh dwarf meat to murder. This also gives you room for a mason's shop and a bit of ice to make a wall around your wagon if you don't want to bring materials. You could dump things underground instead of making a wall around the wagon, but if you've brought ore it will be faster to just make a quick wall.
2. Find caverns, probably with roadar.
3. Send a group of your starters out in a squad to scout the caverns, reveal stuff, and find good choke points to seal off. A pair of dwarves should suffice.
4. Since you'll only be dealing with the first cavern level and have 5k points, you could bring equipment or forge stuff on-site while your miners are digging down to the caverns; fighting to secure a portion for yourself will be viable in the short term. Digging a staging area pre-cavern breach could give you the stone for blocks you'll need and time to make said blocks and equipment. A pair of trained fighters should be enough, or you could draft your miners and make them do the scouting. You might want them for other mining purposes while scouting, though, and it never hurts to have more pre-trained dwarves in a hostile land, so.
5. Wall off the choke points ASAP. Eventually you'll want to secure the entire edge, but for now you just need a hunk of cave to call home. Your scouts can stay on guard duty while your mason churns out blocks and everybody else moves them into place. Drafting the miners remains an option if your section of cavern will be difficult to claim.
6. [regular fort stuff, except your farm plot is in cavern soil for now]
7. With a basic fort setup and a hunk of the caverns taken for yourself, congrats. If your biome is reanimating, your new top priority is not letting undead take over any of the caverns and destroy your FPS. If you're brave and have no water on the edge of your first layer, you can probably capture the entire first cavern for your own use so that your fort is able to grow over a larger area. Otherwise, you'll have to capture it bit by bit, which will be slow and dangerous if your embark is large.

Also... don't bring animals. Cats and maybe sheep if you're worried about not having reliable caravans for wool cloth, but you will not have a thriving meat industry if your embark is reanimating. Do not pit your pack animals, just butcher them. That way you won't get a terrifying zombie bull trapped in a pit, and will instead just have free meat and, at worst, a hair that will get instantly kicked to death. Just tan and spin the stuff quickly so your dwarves don't get spooked.

I also disagree with the advice of bone armor and wooden weapons. Your dwarves' time is valuable right out the gate, and even with metal weaponry you should be wary of sending them into combat repeatedly lest wounds accumulate. If you don't have time to forge metal weapons then your miners are your best line of defense and a dwarf with a wooden axe isn't going to change anything. I guess you could do obsidian short swords if you really want to, since they're quite effective on unarmored creatures and don't take any longer to make than a wood axe.




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muldrake

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Re: Advice for moving into the caves as soon as the embark starts?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2022, 03:12:08 pm »

High risk for fun, but best to set you up, is bring 1 pick and 1 axe, dig under and hollow a 3x9 space. Deconstruct wagon and 'D'ump everything manually into one square just beside the wagon. Bring wood and bituminous coal and bronze. In the 3x9 build 2 hatches (faster to place hatch then build a floor). Cover the stairs. Once the wagon is piled in 1 spot, channel down there, this drops the contents down 1z. Put a hatch over top the hole and lock them. Then make beds, burn 1 wood to charcoal, smelt bit coal into fuel and make full set of bronze picks and axes, make shields and chain chainmail. Everyone should embark with proficient mining and soldiering (dodge, axe, fighter, shield)
You can also get something a lot like this with clinodev's embark.  For the more extremely awful embarks, you might want to zap a couple of the crafts skills in favor of weapons and other combat skills.  Any time you can substitute an absurdly expensive finished item for materials you can nearly instantly turn into finished materials on embark, the better.  You should also skip stupid dwarf tricks like bringing single items of meat or fish for free barrels, because every one of those is another tick or two on the clock to a thralling cloud instantly killing your entire set of starting dwarves.

For other than utterly insane biomes, the clinodev craftsdwarves embark is phenomenal for getting a fort full of masterwork items literally in under a year game time.  Everyone will be living in personal palaces.

And the fact they all have high quality weapons and armor means you don't end up with that annoying situation where by the time you have steel up, dwarves have already become attached to low-quality items.  So you can keep all the good ones and dump the trash on the elves or whoever.
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