Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?  (Read 1911 times)

madpathmoth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« on: June 19, 2022, 09:01:30 pm »

I was thinking of what I would do with an early-game militia in my next fort, and it occurred to me that if I made a squad and told them not to use weapons (while I focused on making armor as soon as possible) that it might work out well enough to be more than just a stop-gap until I can forge the weapons I want.

Wrestling is useful for any military dwarf, as it plays a role in escaping/resisting grapples from enemies, so that's reason enough to train a squad for that.  But assuming they also will train Striking as well, if unarmed attacks are nearly as effective as I've seen them be in Adventurer Mode, then it seems like a squad of heavily-armored wrestlers could potentially be very effective, at least against certain enemy types.

Do any of you do wrestler squads regularly?  Do they struggle to be effective, or do they have at least some very good applications in fortress defense?
Logged

Maloy

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2022, 09:33:31 pm »

They're overpowered in many respects, but can easily die in ridiculous ways and so I don't feel they need tweaking
A legendary scratcher can literally tear someone's head off with their fingernails


I once embarked on a zombie island and only had naked wrestler squads for defense. At first it was funny watching them get mauled and killed, but later on they were straight up pinning down zombie ettins while the rest of the squad beat it to death like it was just tuesday.

Logged

RLS0812

  • Bay Watcher
  • ~ Cancels Everything ~
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2022, 09:36:05 pm »

Punching many things is not very effective TBH … training dwarves in dodging and grappling is great - having them attempt to fight anything, even crundles, unarmed will end up with needless injuries and/or death. Yes if dwarves are very high level in unarmed they can bash in the skulls of almost anything.
 Any metal weapon ( or obsidian swords if you are desperate ) works well to start with in my opinion .
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 09:38:47 pm by RLS0812 »
Logged
Have you experienced the joys of a dwarven tantrum chain yet ?

Quarque

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2022, 12:31:32 am »

I like to train military dwarves up to legendary wrestler first, then legendary shield & armor user and finally train with a weapon. They end up with superb physical stats, too.
Logged

Ulfarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • Going on a pilgrimage to Mars
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2022, 02:47:59 am »

Early on wrestlers are crap because their attacks just aren't that lethal and especially against an equally skilled but armed opponent the odds are seriously against them. Wrestler do become quite strong once they reach the point (skill + strength) where they can just break/explode limbs with each strike.

For early fort defense (against animals/kobolds/werebeasts) you'll get more out of a squad equipped with just a weapon, a shield and a helmet (to prevent one-shots to the head).
Logged
Bring Kobold Kamp to LNP! graphics compatibility fix.

So the conclusion I'm getting here is that we use QSPs because dwarves can't pilot submarines.

anewaname

  • Bay Watcher
  • The mattock... My choice for problem solving.
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2022, 06:29:42 am »

I can't stop making wrestler squads. A couple of years ago someone posted about how they were training their dwarfs and I adopted their method. You keep a drillmaster training a squad of recruits with armor but no weapons or shield, and they gain dodge and armor user faster than they would if they were also using a weapon and shield. Once the recruits have some skill, put them in a squad with weapons/shields and add new recruits to the drillmaster's squad.
Logged
How did I manage to successfully apply the lessons of The Screwtape Letters to my perceptions of big grocery stores?

madpathmoth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2022, 07:51:33 am »

You keep a drillmaster training a squad of recruits with armor but no weapons or shield, and they gain dodge and armor user faster than they would if they were also using a weapon and shield.

This is the exact kind of thing I was curious about, kind of focusing dwarves on learning defensive skills during their training.  Would including a shield in the uniform help or hinder that goal?
Logged

klefenz

  • Bay Watcher
  • Obey the Fist!
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2022, 04:24:29 pm »

If they have a shield they would block instead of dodge or take it. They only learn armor user then they take hits

Eric Blank

  • Bay Watcher
  • Never stabs friends, promise!
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2022, 02:53:48 pm »

They're useful in training, but not actual combat scenarios, especially against larger opponents or equal or greater numbers. You'll just take massive casualties or have them locked into trying to strangle a troll or giant for months. Move them into a weapon squad once they've got some experience.
Logged
I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

madpathmoth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2022, 02:58:42 pm »

They're useful in training, but not actual combat scenarios, especially against larger opponents or equal or greater numbers. You'll just take massive casualties or have them locked into trying to strangle a troll or giant for months. Move them into a weapon squad once they've got some experience.

In the situation where I have my only military squad training wrestling, is there a more convenient or reliable way to have them all arm themselves on a moment's notice besides editing the squad's uniforms directly and then changing them back after?  Like, being able to set a training uniform and an active orders uniform or something?
Logged

anewaname

  • Bay Watcher
  • The mattock... My choice for problem solving.
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2022, 07:35:28 am »

No, there is no option for different uniforms for training and combat.

If you have a bin-less stockpile in the barracks for their weapons and shields, then you can reduce the time it takes for most of the squad to get their weapons. When there is an emergency, give them an order to Move to the stockpile and after they get there, they will pickup the weapon and shield and wait for the orders to move elsewhere.
Logged
How did I manage to successfully apply the lessons of The Screwtape Letters to my perceptions of big grocery stores?

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Competent Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2022, 02:03:16 pm »

My opinion on wrestler squad is - they are a way to train your population to minimize casualties during events, no more no less. One good strategy would consist on training one or two instructors and rotating your population until they get Master Rank or above, then releasing them into civilian life. Thay will teach them to dodge and wrestling move, earning you extra time and drastically reducing the civilian casualty number against low level threats such as kobolds or werebeasts.

As for having your actual military without weapons... I would not advise it at all. I've been wrong in the past, and wrestling is more deadly than it first appears, but even if scratches can be debilitating or even lethal in some conditions (because the game considers the nail to be the size of the finger), it is the equivalent of assaulting an enemy with a small bone knife. You can sever tendons, you can cut arteries, but you can do it better with a steel axe.

As for the wrestling stricto sensu, it recquires strengh to be effective. Your dwarves will John Cena a kobold, a lone goblin or a werebeast, but against a bigger creature that resist your keratine stillettos and will manhandle you if you try to wrestle it, your army will be eaten alive.
Another thing to consider is wrestling has relatively low lethality. It's okay in 1v1 because you can disable your opponent, put him on the ground and the fight is over when you start strangling. But when you are fighting 1 versus 10, the strategy becomes a lot less effective. Killing takes a lot of time, and every wrestling move you perform prevents you from dodging. And since you cannot block and cannot parry, and now cannot dodge, you are bound to receive nasty blows.

So in the end, to even make an unharmed squad even remotely viable, you would have to outfit it in full armor. And at that cost, why not adding just the remaining axe to get a regular squad ?

delphonso

  • Bay Watcher
  • menaces with spikes of pine
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2022, 08:31:40 am »

I once played as a dead civ on an island with no weapon metals, so we were limited to whatever gear I embarked with and the random equipment of the first two migrant waves (I didn't know about metal duplication at the time)

So with the choice between wooden training weapons and wrestling, I trained them up to be formidible wrestlers. I had no idea how well it would go until an ettin showed up. Two dwarves led the attack and immediately broke both its arms, pinned it to the ground and each stomped in a head. I will say whether it's a good idea or not, it's a damn fun one!

Fortressmaker

  • Bay Watcher
  • i am fortress maker
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2022, 12:13:33 pm »

Wrestling is one of most worked things in dwarf fortress, i think that wrestlers are nice in some type of action, for example weak unit killing. While in adventure mode i can break their necks and throw them, it makes me think that the wrestling in dwarf fortress is more than elaborate, but since in fortress mode our dwarves are idiots really genius people, they attack the most strange parts of the body, they are not thinking of taking the enemies weapon or shield, they are thinking of holding them... I see little utility in using this type of soldiers.

I am currently having a trouble with goblins 2000+ goblin civilization destroyed my mountainhome, and i feel really mad so i have created hybrid soldiers that grasp and impale.  :)
Logged
Hello "Your name", i cant say i heard it before, the life is, in one word, Fortresses.

DrCyano

  • Bay Watcher
  • For !!SCIENCE!!
    • View Profile
Re: What's your opinion on no-weapon (Wrestler) squads?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2022, 04:07:48 pm »

Wrestlers are great for conquering other civs, ok against other normal sized humanoids, but I find that they waste too much time uselessly punching large monsters. I think its better to have weapons than armor, and you can directly train the dodging skill with a good danger room.

That said, a squad of luchedors clad only in leather trousers and hoods is just thematically too good :)
Logged


A mad scientist necromancer, a peasant with a dream, a secret message inscribed on a gem, a giant bridge.
Come witness the Saga of the Puzzling Sea!
A documented Dwarf Fortress v0.47.xx game combining Fort Mode and Adventure Mode.
Pages: [1] 2