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Author Topic: Dominions 5 Round 06 - The end  (Read 32605 times)

Azthor

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #270 on: August 04, 2022, 04:33:11 pm »

On the topic of the bakemono-sho, I recently saw a short video by a player advocating a bakemono-centric strategy for Yomi: https://youtu.be/91QAQT6qcEE

That player managed to put 750 goblins on the field by turn 12. I understand his thesis was essentially that this technique was so overwhelmingly strong it could be used to win early wars as Yomi and make up for the nation's economic disadvantages.

The approach somewhat feels like a one-trick pony to me; notably, the strategy is hard-countered by certain specific units (Abysian burning ones have high protection and AoE damage, for example; magma kids would likely fare alright, but would suffer heavy attrition) or by SCs who can ignore an arbitrary number of yari hits (not an easy thing at all in the early game - those things hit for 19 piercing damage with SoG). Still, the pony is strong and it is barded with 750 yaris, so maybe those flaws are acceptable.

Something to keep in mind at the end of the day is that when the best elements of a nation are trying to pull it into two different directions that don't mix, it is usually a not very good nation, unless those elements are extraordinarily good on their own.

Strong nations, on the other hand, offer different elements that work together and add cumulative conditions an opponent has to clear when making decisions, until they are down to virtually wild guessing on whether the counters in any given conflict will work or backfire

Said bakemono rush would get flattened by a great many things, between awake pretenders and nations with a better rush. And if it does work you are then highly likely to earn a gank.

That at the cost of having recruited virtually no mage for the first twelve turns.

It's neat that it also avoids the weakness to order scales and the need for many temples (and it makes growth scales more attractive). I think if I were playing more optimally I would've recruited many more goblins early, but for my first multiplayer game I didn't want to play aggressively.

Abyssia seems like just such a horrible match for Yomi, even with cold scales. I'm not sure I can imagine a valid counter... the only thing that comes to mind is Rigor Mortis, with all the problems that would come with that.

You are probably overrating EA Abyssia a lot there. It is really overspecialized. What is worse, it is specialized in a bad element. Its only saving grace is it can go blood, and that blood can borderline make up for the lack of path diversity.

For instance, the Burning Ones are capital-only sacreds with a very high price tag, and the AoE in question is fire shield, which becomes nearly useless when a little weapon length and protection enter the equation. More so, the heat auras on most of Abyssia's units are small enough that temperature scales can outright stamp them out.

It can finance holy scourge spam like no other nation, but that is it.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 04:35:16 pm by Azthor »
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #271 on: August 04, 2022, 06:39:15 pm »

IDK, the flip side of bakemono being 6/square is that they're twice as vulnerable to AOE spells as humans, and with their weak armor and low HP, an awful lot of pretty low fire evocation could be killing 6 bakemono per cast - and it only gets worse from there. If the Abysian heavy infantry can hold the line (which is a big if given yari density), a handful of fire mages would rack up a lot of kills very quickly. There's also the whole matter of all these troops being undisciplined which means they'll be rushing forward leaving their commanders unprotected - and Abyssia does have access to fliers, including some tanky ones.

I still wouldn't like those odds for Abyssia, but I'm not sure it'd be a death sentence.
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Azthor

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #272 on: August 04, 2022, 11:24:19 pm »

IDK, the flip side of bakemono being 6/square is that they're twice as vulnerable to AOE spells as humans, and with their weak armor and low HP, an awful lot of pretty low fire evocation could be killing 6 bakemono per cast - and it only gets worse from there. If the Abysian heavy infantry can hold the line (which is a big if given yari density), a handful of fire mages would rack up a lot of kills very quickly. There's also the whole matter of all these troops being undisciplined which means they'll be rushing forward leaving their commanders unprotected - and Abyssia does have access to fliers, including some tanky ones.

I still wouldn't like those odds for Abyssia, but I'm not sure it'd be a death sentence.

Oh, it'd definitely be a fight. But his "a horrible match with no valid counter" felt like vastly overselling Abyssia.

Ironically, I think skirmish works in Yomi's favor where the fire evokers' effectivenes is concerned, but my opinion is a slight edge for Yomi, against a pre-blood Abyssia.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #273 on: August 04, 2022, 11:53:43 pm »

Skirmish is a good point - I'd forgotten that.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #274 on: August 05, 2022, 06:09:13 am »

I do think Abyssia would probably be in a pretty decent place vs Yomi early on. Beserking Barkskinned burning ones are 25 prot, which isn't enough for a single thug or probably pretender (without fear or a lot of regeneration) to tank vs unending legions of Bakemono, but for units, even units that cost 14 time as much as the bakemono, with flame shield killing rapidly it does reach the threshold of "extremely tanky units" I was talking about previously. Now, once flame ward and strength of giants comes out, I think that Yomi would be in a much more decent place, which is a reasonablish first place to go with your research, but I'm not sure if SoG putting the Bakemono up to 20 damage is enough on it's own, and it's certainly possible (especially if you're using your capital mage recruitment as leaders for your huge swarms of goblins) that you won't be able to reach flame ward by the time of your first war, so, not sure really.

Of course, "not able to win vs a big blessed Abyssia in the first war" isn't really a damning thing to say about a unit, most units and nations do tend to fall into that category :P

Edit: Of course with a good enough expansion it may be possible to drown Abyssia in so many goblins they can't stamp down on them all with just their capital sacreds, flooding their lands with disposable goblins and forcing them on the defensive until you get your key research might give you the win and I'm not sure what Abyssia could do against that... It'd be tricky.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2022, 06:16:22 am by Criptfeind »
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Azthor

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #275 on: August 09, 2022, 09:31:35 am »

The Hall of Heroes is looking prettty gloomy. When will someone start pulling out some festive mummies?
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Karlito

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #276 on: August 09, 2022, 09:36:38 am »

Gotta remember to rename my dudes, just in case.
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This sentence contains exactly threee erors.

a1s

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #277 on: August 09, 2022, 02:39:47 pm »

My beautiful bonfire, it is no more! Who did this? >:(
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I tried to play chess but two of my opponents were playing competitive checkers as a third person walked in with Game of Thrones in hand confused cause they thought this was the book club.

Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #278 on: August 09, 2022, 03:37:31 pm »

I'm ready to snitch on the fish for 20 fire gems. Otherwise I know nothing.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #279 on: August 09, 2022, 03:45:46 pm »

I'm ready to snitch on anyone for 20 firegems, but I'm ready to snitch on the monkeys for 15 if you call within the next ten minutes - operators are standing by! Otherwise I know many things, but most of them are sordid gossip about fish, frogs, and crustaceans.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #280 on: August 09, 2022, 03:49:00 pm »

I'll pay* you 5 fire gems to snitch on Ermor.

*Terms and conditions apply. May not include actual fire gems. Monke cannot be held accountable for failure to deliver.
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a1s

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #281 on: August 09, 2022, 05:10:22 pm »

I'm ready to snitch on the fish for 20 fire gems. Otherwise I know nothing.
Now see, I would gladly pay you 20 gems if I still had the pyre, but now I have to ration them, so I won't. :P
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I tried to play chess but two of my opponents were playing competitive checkers as a third person walked in with Game of Thrones in hand confused cause they thought this was the book club.

E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #282 on: August 09, 2022, 05:26:20 pm »

I'll pay* you 5 fire gems to snitch on Ermor.

*Terms and conditions apply. May not include actual fire gems. Monke cannot be held accountable for failure to deliver.

*spyhops and points tentacle righteously at Ermor* It was Barmoley wot done in the Pyre, in the Temple of the Shroud, with the pearls!!!
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #283 on: August 10, 2022, 05:45:09 pm »

I'm off to sleep. The deadline is nigh upon us. Added 12h in case Rus doesn't make it. Though, as always, some heads-up about delays would be appreciated.
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Duuvian

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Re: Dominions 5 Round 06 - Götterdämmerung
« Reply #284 on: August 10, 2022, 08:48:45 pm »

My apology, I miscalculated my timing , I'll get it in pretty quick.
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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit
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