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Author Topic: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?  (Read 2245 times)

borf

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DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« on: June 26, 2022, 02:44:41 am »

Hi all,

I finally got around to taking a deep dive into the game, and now that I've finished the quickstart tutorial I'm trying to figure out military and industry. I keep going back and forth between the game, Dwarf Therapist and the wiki and I'm spending a lot of time tying to figure out how many dwarfs should have what labors. So I'm wondering about DFHack's autolabor, which seems to mean that I dont have to worry about any of that, and I can just start experimenting with workshop designs, setting up industry, how much to produce of what and so on.

On the other hand I would like to make an informed decision on whether I want to hand off this task or whether I'd like to plan the labor division myself. Especially once the steam/itch.io version comes out I'd like ditch 3rd party programs as much as possible to get the full vanilla experience (and then decide how/if I want to cheat).

So do you think enabling autolabor is a helpful crutch while still trying to figure stuff out? Or could I be missing some significant details in fortress planning which would force me to relearn a lot once I try to ditch it?
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Haggoroth

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2022, 06:59:52 pm »

I have not used autolabor, however I would recommend not using it as it sounds like a crutch, and not just a crutch, but one that actually hurts you in the long run.  Dwarf therapist is fine because it just puts a good UI on the work you still need to do, and even that UI isn't perfect.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2022, 08:54:38 pm »

I typically get so many dwarves with various labors already enabled, that I only use DT when either I need someone not to do something or I’m trying to figure out why something isn’t being done.  That and choosing nobles…
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NordicNooob

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2022, 11:36:20 am »

I think if you've finished the quickstart, then questions like this are the kind you should be solving alongside your other optimizations. Properly allocating who does what is, in my opinion, far more important than the layout of your fort since making sure everybody has a healthy amount of free time while still being productive will ensure your fort remains happy and also free up as many dwarves as possible to go to the protection of the fort. A well organized workforce can accomplish a lot more than a poorly optimized one, since it will be in tune with what you and your fort need rather than "whatever the migrants have enabled" or "whatever autolabor thinks is best."

Autolabor can be nice if you're getting overwhelmed by the game and aren't really able to troubleshoot things on your own yet, but once you have a basic understanding of the game, spreadsheet managers like DFhack's in-game one or Therapist are both vastly superior to anything else. Autolabor can even be a headache when it switches up labors and you're wondering why a specific dwarf isn't doing the job they used to, only to find autolabor swapped it out to a "more suited" dwarf that you wanted for something else.

Ditching third-party programs down the road is even more reason to learn good labor management now, since if the Steam release doesn't streamline large-scale labor management, you'll still have to know who needs to do what, but you won't get a spreadsheet to tell you the best dwarf for the job or to keep tabs on who's doing things; all you get is profession names, so if you're not already comfortable it'll be even more of a nuisance.

That's not to say you have to frontload everything logistics-wise and pause the game until you've got a perfect plan for the next ten years, but manual labor management is something that's worth spending some time to think about. If you need any help, you can ask around and see what general labor setups other people use, and usually they'll explain that they use some field heavier or lighter than the average player, and you can calibrate yourself off of that.
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borf

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2022, 01:02:50 pm »

Thank you all a lot, that's really valuable input. I will try to balance spreadsheets in my free time as well then  :D

Properly allocating who does what is, in my opinion, far more important than the layout of your fort

See I would have thought the opposite, guess labor management is way more important than I thought.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 01:07:27 pm by borf »
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Bumber

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2022, 01:29:10 am »

I've never used autolabor because I assume it will put my legendary smiths on hauling duty into danger. Is that concern founded?
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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2022, 05:46:06 am »

That used to be my concern too but nowadays I use autolabor and autohauler all the time and they work fantastically well. For example, the script(s) keep 2 dwarves doing all my metal armour and different 2 dwarves doing all my metal weapons so that I get high level artisans. I haven't noticed any downsides to them and it has freed me from micromanaging labours via Dwarf Therapist.
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Putnam

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2022, 12:04:38 am »

I have not used autolabor, however I would recommend not using it as it sounds like a crutch, and not just a crutch, but one that actually hurts you in the long run.  Dwarf therapist is fine because it just puts a good UI on the work you still need to do, and even that UI isn't perfect.

you do not actually need to do the work therapist makes you think you do, to be honest.

I've never used autolabor because I assume it will put my legendary smiths on hauling duty into danger. Is that concern founded?

labormanager at least lets you blacklist certain dwarves and set a cap on how many dwarves can do this-or-that

See I would have thought the opposite, guess labor management is way more important than I thought.

It's unironically not more important than you thought, it's just massively overvalued by this community to a point that I kinda consider comical

NordicNooob

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2022, 02:43:31 am »

See I would have thought the opposite, guess labor management is way more important than I thought.
It's unironically not more important than you thought, it's just massively overvalued by this community to a point that I kinda consider comical
I disagree, though I have an unusual perspective on labor and the idea of the dwarf—most of my forts are less than 50 population.

Pre-rant, it's worth noting that yep, you absolutely can manage with just whatever the migrants have enabled or autolabor or whatever. Dwarf Fortress is not fundamentally a difficult "game", it's just unfair, hard to learn, and buggy—dwarves are just really productive little buggers, and often times the aforementioned bugs work out in your favor. If you really want, just spot weld labors onto a random dwarf whenever something's not getting done. Won't be pretty, but it'll work alright.

That being said, my main point is that managing labor yourself will not just change how your fortress runs for the better (which isn't as important; your lads can manage just fine as noted), but give you more flexibility and freedom to specialize your fort into whatever you really want to pour effort into and really have fun with the game instead of just surviving but with more dwarves.

I consider good labor management to be mostly two things: consolidation of jobs (have exactly as many dwarves as you need, no more, no less) to minimize the amount of dwarves you need to run the fort while maintaining productivity and sanity, and profession names to organize your workforce and make everything about maintaining your workforce easier to manage. Profession names sound trivial, but they help with sorting in Therapist, tell you what a dwarf's *actual* job is in combat reports and the unit menu, and let you rapidly reorganize and recruit for expanding workforce or military.

First, proper organization means more dwarf per dwarf. You get to make sure that only people who need to be on standby (or need to not go insane) are slacking off, and you get more FPS because you don't need to feed, clothe, room, and otherwise sustain 100+ dwarves just to run your fort and have a few squads.

Second, it'll improve the quality of your stuff. If you have too many masons, for example, you'll get garbage quality. But too few and you won't ever get the 100 cabinets+100 coffers order finished.

Third: in a crisis, you know who needs to get off their arse and do something. No need to give a new job to some random shmuck every time something isn't happening when you know that Dastot does that job and you can just make sure he specifically drops everything to do it.

Fourth: having a system makes sorting new migrants into needed fields much easier because you'll know exactly what you're short on. Constant patch jobs of "crap, need another x, I think?" are pretty annoying when you have to search for somebody with a useless job and change it. And also make sure you actually need one and the existing ones aren't just slacking. Most migrants have fairly low skills in their original job, so you get a lot of freedom to scoot labors around as you see fit.

Fifth: it lets you do fun things, like caste forts, generation forts, or just regular small forts. A lot of mine are small enough that one dwarf per major labor will just not have enough dwarves to do everything, and I need leftover dwarves for soldiers and projects.

You'll learn what you want as you play more, and figure out what labors you can be patient with and use less dwarves on and which things you always seem to need done NOW and should dedicate somebody (or multiple somebodies) to. Or if you need things done NOW but only every once in a while, and can give that dwarf a second lower-priority job while they twiddle their thumbs waiting till they're needed.

But at the end of the day, I will concede that the bigger your fort, the less labor management matters practically speaking, and the harder it gets because you will have way too many dwarves to sort through unless you're proactive and keep things straight from the start.

 
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hedgerow

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2022, 08:14:10 am »

Hi all,

I finally got around to taking a deep dive into the game, and now that I've finished the quickstart tutorial I'm trying to figure out military and industry. I keep going back and forth between the game, Dwarf Therapist and the wiki and I'm spending a lot of time tying to figure out how many dwarfs should have what labors. So I'm wondering about DFHack's autolabor, which seems to mean that I dont have to worry about any of that, and I can just start experimenting with workshop designs, setting up industry, how much to produce of what and so on.

On the other hand I would like to make an informed decision on whether I want to hand off this task or whether I'd like to plan the labor division myself. Especially once the steam/itch.io version comes out I'd like ditch 3rd party programs as much as possible to get the full vanilla experience (and then decide how/if I want to cheat).

So do you think enabling autolabor is a helpful crutch while still trying to figure stuff out? Or could I be missing some significant details in fortress planning which would force me to relearn a lot once I try to ditch it?

Totally worth it.

There are six good reasons why you should:
  • Alt-Tabbing the window to DT will detract from your gameplay experience, as you'll spend less time on the game window and more time turning your head.
  • There's a lull after mining slows down but before year three where your dwarves will slow to a crawl.
  • Dwarves seem to enjoy day-to-day routines, and autolabor supports this quite well, for some reason.
  • You will always run into snags like things not being able to be done, and autolabor does most of the heavy thinking for you when it comes to dividing labor up among the talented.
  • You don't really need DT.  What you need are burrows.  Autolabor and burrows seem to work quite well, and paired with traffic zones, your dwarves will actually start to congregate in certain areas even if they don't have burrows.
  • Looking over skills after three years of constant use, your dwarves won't be eclectic handymen, so you won't need to worry about them never getting good at anything.  Artifacts and work tools tend to keep them occupied in the same manner over the long run, especially if you're using DFHack plugins associated with cutting trees).

There are some things autolabor doesn't do, which is tend to hauling.  There are a lot of times I want to turn hauling off entirely, but I haven't gotten around to it.  Even with job orders, I have to remove workers constantly to prevent them from traipsing in the wrong areas, and their productivity does seem to crawl at that point.

Putnam

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2022, 12:15:27 pm »

Also, keep in mind that the steam release uses an autolabor-like system, where all dwarves do everything by default and can be specialized on an individual basis, rather than being specialized-by-default and manually generalized.

Quietust

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2022, 01:13:46 pm »

1. Alt-Tabbing the window to DT will detract from your gameplay experience, as you'll spend less time on the game window and more time turning your head.
Out of curiosity, would having a DT-like interface within the game itself (e.g. accessible by opening the (u)nits list and pressing (l)) alleviate this concern?
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muldrake

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2022, 03:37:18 pm »

autolabor works really well in the early part of the game.  It seems to diminish in utility as you exceed about a hundred dwarves.  At that point, it makes a lot more sense to manage your dwarves directly.

I do not like doing this with DT any more, because at some point, personally micromanaging everything seems tyrannical.  I like just saying what I want done and then dwarves do it when they feel like it.  I prefer using the job manager task, but more specifically, people seem to underrate using settings for specific workshops instead of just having general labor queues.

I like picking the most skilled dwarf at a particular task and building him or her a personal workshop to do it, often in a personally designed palatial suite of quarters, often with a personal temple for any preferred deities as well as masterwork everything and proximity to an inn or tavern as well.

But autolabor is (IMO) absolutely wonderful in the early game when it is incredibly important to get things done immediately and efficiently.

Later it gets a lot more important to pay more individual attention to dwarves (read their text), because you could have dwarves losing their minds from something easily fixed, like autolabor endlessly assigning them to haul ore outside or something else of the same nature.

Also labormanager often works in situations where autolabor has decided to crap its pants for whatever reason.

My opinion is DT is currently best for managing the military, because those menus are godawful, although if you've looked at the Steam updates, the military menus so far look like one of the best QoL improvements.

In any event, I really wouldn't consider it a crutch so much as a tool.  And a crutch is a sort of tool but has a negative connotation.  Use whatever makes you have more fun.  Or even !FUN!

Personally I always have it on when I start a fort, and then maybe turn it off if it starts acting weird, which it sometimes does.  That's usually at the 100+ or so dwarves/other denizens size forts.
Alt-Tabbing the window to DT will detract from your gameplay experience, as you'll spend less time on the game window and more time turning your head.
One thing I will give DT over other tools is that it may break game immersion to some extent, but there's a whole different kind of immersion when you're using it to look at dwarves and their thoughts and sorting by any imaginable variable.  This is really good when you're trying to save a dwarf (or decide whether magma therapy is the only solution).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 03:41:29 pm by muldrake »
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DrCyano

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Re: DFHack Autolabor helpful crutch for new players?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2022, 03:42:48 am »

I actually prefer DFHack’s in-game labor manager (U -> L) the best!

No window-switching, easy to use, and has lots of little features for more advanced usage (which is really overkill). Plus it perfectly matches the game’s aesthetics, it doesn’t even feel like a mod.

Managing labors is only really important in the early game when you have fewer dwarves than there are labors. Eventually, you’ll have about a dozen highly productive dwarves that cover all labors (usually the original 7 plus the first migrant wave) and the rest can be left to whatever they came with (you’ll put those dorfs in the army anyway).
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