[1] You see why I complain about people not reading my posts? I don't make that many, it's not hard.
[2] And again, with someone preemptively going "NJW is going to represent my points, boo-hoo!". This game is tedious.
[1] It seems to me like you're unhappy people aren't reading your posts
the way you want them to, not in general.
[2] Given you pulled a bunch of your usual tricks again, yes, I think I'm justified in complaining.
I mean, I've pressed a bunch of people on stuff I found disturbing: Shake on the not-seeing-facetiousness tell, Max on his preference for Egan over you, Tric on what could have been a scumslip but it's very hard to tell with Tric, Egan on knowingly playing weakly and using his newness as an excuse, etc. So yeah, I've been looking for scum.
Where are your
detailed cases? You can point out individually scummy things, but you've never shown me the drive to take someone and get them executed.
As to the fact you've been scumhunting... sure you have. I acknowledge you did it D1, and I implicitly acknowledged it then by, you know, not pointing out "this vet isn't scumhunting at all, that's crazy!".
I don't think I'm okay with 'implicit acknowledgement'. When something is relevant, you need to address it.
[1] Thing is, mafia can scumhunt too. You're a forum vet, so if you couldn't convincingly fake looking for scum, you'd have a reputation for being incredibly easily read. Which I'm pretty sure you don't.
[2] You eliminated Egan at least in part for not scumhunting as much and as loudly as other players, even though that was stupid, because of course they wouldn't, they're were a newbie miller in a crazy BYOR game.
[3] Again, you seem to have this mistaken idea that scumhunting -> always town, not scumhunting -> always scum. It doesn't.
[4] And you're insisting that the first one means people can't scumread you.
[1] Unfortunately this point is a bit convoluted since 90% of my games on this site have been as scum or third party. My reputation is inherently unbalanced.
[2] I've seen Egan playing before - er. Maybe I haven't. Okay, you have a point here, and I forgot to take into account the meta situation when hunting Egan. I don't think I would have gone after them so hard if I realized their relative lack of experience.
[3] No evidence is absolute. I believe that being an active participant in the game, by hunting down scum and creating cases for those you think are scum, is the strongest towntell possible. Likewise,
not hunting down scum and
not creating detailed cases is the strongest scumtell possible.
[4] No, I'm not. This is misrepresentation, again. I never said you can't scum read me. My point is that if you want to say I'm scum, you have to take into account
all the evidence that you can. Not just mechanics stuff.
An argument that doesn't even
address my behavior isn't a good one.
I don't vote based on virtue, I vote on who I actually think is scum.
Does town-virtue not correlate with who is town?
How do you determine who is town and who is scum, if you refuse to take into account 'virtue'?
Because, to put it simply, that is the strongest evidence against his argument that I must be scum. If I am actively scum hunting, attacking, creating cases - if I am acting town in every way other than claiming partial-miller late, then it undercuts his case, so he simply refuses to acknowledge it, and minimizes my points whenever possible.
Again, stop representing me as saying you must be scum. I thought you were the best choice D1, I don't have 100% confidence in my D1 reads.
Besides, you posted this in your mega-post after me, HERE, explicitly stating that I don't think you're mafia. Unless you were referring to my case yesterday, but the point stands that a mafia player can look active and helpful, while a town player like Egan can look unhelpful. Would have been nice to see some evidence that you actually read that post, but hey.
I really wish people would actually read my posts.
Okay, I didn't argue clearly enough in this case. In the quote you took here, I was referring to your day-one behavior. Changing your read later on is okay.
NJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.
I honestly do not understand why it is so important to you that he say that.
If you're going to make a case on someone, you have to take into account the evidence
for them being town as well as the evidence
against them being town.
... Which means I need to make
another post that's specifically dedicated to addressing how NJW2000 doesn't actually contribute to the game in a townie fashion. Joy.
I would suspect fallacy due to the suspicious reaction to Egan’s joking about them being scum, and the fact that when I voted them, they sounded rather panicked until I explained myself. As well, they were the other major voting target.
If you have a specific post you're referring to, it'd be a good idea to quote it. You can use the 'quote' button in the top right corner of a post to do this.
It makes it easier to address your points, and punctuates what you're saying.
I feel like web wouldn't put in random nonsense like non-shared mafiakills that also block so the victim doesn't get to play.
As much as this is outguessing the mod, it's also absurd because NJW did play in BYOR 15. NJW2000 should have at least a basic understanding of the fact that webadict prefers to make setups more interesting and complex instead of less. Although this is a Beginner's BYOR, this game isn't trying to be Mostly Vanilla Mafia. If anything, a mafiakill ability that also blocks is really simple. It's not a reasonable argument to make that 'web wouldn't put in' my ability.
Furthermore, at this point we've seen Egan's role flip. NJW has an example of exactly what our mod is willing to do. NJW is representing my role as something absurd or unlikely, but that doesn't match up with reality. If anything, given Tric's role, and Knightwing's role, my role is on the lesser end of this game's strength.
NJW2000 represents my role as absurd or unlikely, however they have experience with webadict's prior modding, which would suggest that my role is reasonable, even if webadict has scaled down to Beginner's level. Egan's role flip also provides an example of the level of power/complexity our mod is willing to create, and NJW2000 has also seen this. In spite of that NJW2000 argues my role is unlikely to truly exist.
FoU: I don't actually mind NJW asking for you to repeat something you'd said before in a slightly different way, it is a scumhunting tactic that gives a liar a chance to trip up and contradict themselves.
I can see what you mean, but from my point of view, it looks like he just ignored what my post said.
FoU: To be fair, at the time NJW said these things you had not presented your case yet. I don't mind dismissing a case that hasn't been made yet as a case that hasn't been made yet. Also, this section feels kinda misrepresentation-ey, which I'd really REALLY prefer if you avoided doing when part of your own case is that NJW is misrepresentation-ey.
While it is true I had not created my case yet at this point in time, I
had stated my intention to do so. NJW2000 said, roughly speaking 'you're saying that I'm scum without showing evidence', failing to respond to the fact that I had publicly announced that I was going to be creating a full case.
I'll reiterate my point now that NJW2000 does not acknowledge evidence that would contradict his points against me. I am
specifically noting absence, not contradiction.
[1] 1. I genuinely think FoU has been posting a lot of nonsense. "Why won't you acknowledge my scumhunting?" is half of his main argument against me. I explain why this is a worthless thing for a vet to post about above. So yeah, I'll dismiss his arguments.
[2] 4. My attitude to you changed between your posts, and I became less sympathetic to the doll confusion, after you voted and swore at me. Is this confusing?
[3] 5. I'm not sure which bit, but use without attribution post is here.
Posting from phone (you have no idea how annoying this formatting is to create) to point out that the “lack of suspects” thing NJW claims to suspect Egan for is one of the points I came up with, pretty much directly taken from my post. NJW does not mention this.
He actually says taking so it does mean stealing nyaah.
I have no idea why he would post that unless to sus me, in which case he is kinda suggesting I stole it? I don't really get the distinction here, it seems like an insanely subtle quibble.
[3.5] Interesting that FoU is hitting the misrepresentation note hard - I think he really wants you to vote me, and is willing to be fairly instrumental about it. Still pretty much NAI though.
[4] 6. I misunderstand him once, because I think "non-claim" refers to all the not claiming he's been doing. Then I post once briefly at the end of the day and don't answer him. I've already stated that I find the miller stuff strong enough to vote on, as well as a few odd interactions with Egan and weak pushes, and that I only expect very slight tells like that from a vet D1. Fallacy is repeatedly yelling that my case can't be reasonable because he has been scumhunting and being active. That's the thing he wants me to answer here. Literally LAMIST.
I've already addressed this, I feel.
[5] 7. Do you want a line by line of this? It's mostly wrong, but the most damning thing is his:
"The strongest point I have to make is that NJW2000 is not hunting scum, and refuses to acknowledge that that is what I am doing."
Which is clearly a very weak "point". I have been hunting scum, and I am not obliged to acknowledge that FoU scumhunts, it's expected of him as either alignment. I never said he didn't scumhunt, so why is he repeatedly asking me to acknowledge it?
[1] I disagree. Scumhunting is strongly indicative of level of engagement with the game, which is a key component of towniness/scuminness. Specifically because NJW2000 is a veteran player, he
should be creating cases and hunting down players. He is not.
Note that he has not created a case on Shakerag, who he is arguing is scum.
[2] Lenglon addresses this point herself, I believe.
[3] I'm okay with players using my content. It's not about the usage. It's that you argued on Day 1 that Egan and I were likely the scumteam
without considering why I would make the point about Egan that they possessed no suspicions. Using that point yourself proves you were aware of it, but you never addressed why I would make it.
[3.5] Yes, I want Lenglon to vote you. She has the only vote today. I want players who I think are scum to be executed. Is this weird?
[4] Your case is unreasonable because it does not address my behavior. "Non-claim" refers to every post I make that does not specifically involve my night / role claims.
[5] Then
where are your cases? You made points about scumminess, but the most we saw as a case was in your reads list. There was no specific, focused, detailed attention given to catching out a single player.
Believe me, that's what I want to be working on, rather than arguing with Fallacy about a case on him I already dropped.
I should also note minimization and invalidation. As scum, you want to make your opponents' cases on you look pointless or not based in fact. This is the equivalent of NJW2000 saying 'Fallacy has no real points, ignore them'.
To summarize, part two:
NJW2000 argues that scumhunting is not indicative of alignment. I counter that engagement with the game is a key tell, and scumhunting is a part of this.NJW2000 does not factor in town tells in his Day 1 argument. I do not believe he is doing so Day 2 either.NJW2000 says he 'scum hunts', but pointing out individual problematic behaviors and tells does not a full case make.
Bah. One megapost down, something like two to three more to go.
Author
Topic: Beginner Mafia 2: BYOR Edition - Game Over! (Read 34895 times)