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Author Topic: HP system  (Read 1432 times)

krestraj2020

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HP system
« on: November 26, 2022, 02:17:54 pm »

English is not my native language so I use google translate.

The combat wiki article says that there are no health points in DF. Like everything here consists of body parts and their condition (healthy .. damaged .. lost). On this forum, the expression "HP system" slips through when it comes to ghouls.
But I could not find answers to the following questions:

1) Do body parts have hidden HP?
1a) Where can I see these hp?
1b) What do these hp depend on?
1c) How much HP does an average steel weapon strike against soft material?

2) How long is a living unit considered alive?
2a) The absence of what body parts will make a dwarf dead?

3) Until when is an undead or a colossus considered alive?
3a) The absence of what body parts will make an undead or colossus dead?
3b) What is the main part of the body in undead or colossus?
3c) how much HP does the animated part of the body have?
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Putnam

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Re: HP system
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2022, 04:37:09 am »

1. Nope. They have tissue layers that can have various wounds on top; the wounds aren't as abstract as many, and cause bleeding, loss of function etc. rather than reducing some internal HP thing.

2. Until it is dead, whether by blood loss, suffocation, cold, heat, encased in cooling lava/magma, frozen in ice, having their liquid parts boiled/frozen, having their solid parts melted/boiled, having their gas parts condensed/solidified, old age, falling into a chasm, starving, drowning, thirst, crushing or scaring to death.
  2a) Head, lower body, upper body. Any of these parts is destroyed when it's cut off or pulped, i.e. more wound than working part.

3. Until it collapses. Colossus are alive like dwarves are, but can only be killed by pulping or cutting off parts.
3a. Same as living units, mostly.
3b. Same as living units, but for undead it can be hands or feet or whole skins or whatever too.
3c. No HP, they stick around until pulped these days AFAIK.

Bumber

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Re: HP system
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2022, 04:55:26 am »

1) I don't think they do. Someone else might know otherwise. I think it's all or nothing each strike rather than cumulative HP damage, subject to attack skill rolls and physics.

1a) I used DFHack and ran "gui/gm-editor" on a unit and checked under "body". The only useful number I found is "blood_count", which tells you how far a living body is from bleeding to death. There's a list of wounds stored with who caused them and what's wrong with the part, but no numbers.

1b) First is material. Bronze colossus flesh is much stronger than a forgotten beast made of water (which will die in one hit to anything.) The wiki says that the strength and toughness attributes make you slightly more resistant to damage, while recuperation helps your wounds heal faster. Body size is very important to damage resistance. The amount of blood a living creature has depends on body size. I think one of the physical attributes (toughness?) has an effect on blood capacity, if I recall correctly.

1c) It depends on the weapon and who's using it. A giant with a steel axe is going to chop off limbs easily. A kobold with a steel dagger is going to have a difficult time without a lucky strike to the heart.

2) Has blood remaining, hasn't suffocated, brain attached to body and not injured, lower body attached to upper body, and upper body exists (not being smashed under a bridge, frozen, obsidianized, or dropped into an eerie glowing pit.) I think doing enough damage to the upper body might also kill (mangling.) Suffocation can be caused by drowning or damaged/paralyzed lungs/spine. Hunger or thirst can kill if the creature requires them. Same with old age.

2a) Head, lower body, or upper body.

3) Lower body attached to upper body, and upper body exists and is not mangled. Special case for undead hands with no upper body: Has ability to grasp (for example, hold a weapon.)

3a) Upper body or lower body, except undead hands, which would mean loss of the hand or all fingers (if it needs them to grasp, unlike crab pincers.) I think separating the hand from the upper arm or lower arm might also "kill" the hand until it is reanimated again without the part. (This might have been changed at some point, however.)

3b) The main part of the body for every creature is usually the upper body. (Ghosts are listed as missing the upper body as their only wound, which means they have no body.) For undead hands, it's the highest part still attached (upper arm, lower arm, or hand.)

3c) The part benefits from the original creature's stats, as well as a supernatural boost to strength (original*1.3 + 1000) and toughness (original*3 + 1000) attributes.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 05:04:34 am by Bumber »
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Orange-of-Cthulhu

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Re: HP system
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2022, 06:45:48 pm »


3) Until when is an undead or a colossus considered alive?

Good question. Once a necromancer animated a skin from a giant tiger I had in my backpack. I was like *scratches head* on how to attack an animated skin, but a stab "killed" it so I could pick it up again.

Combat in general is so complex it's unpredictable.

I had a super-strong elemant man that got one-shotted by a goblin. He shot me in the throat and I bled to dead. He wasn't even a good archer, just lucky.

For the steel, yeah weapons matter. But in general though weapon skill and strenght seem to multiply damage by a ton. With good skills you're in general one-shotting most things or at least causing huge amounts of damage with pretty much anything you use. Like you can murder everybody in a bandit camp using like a banjo or mug as a weapon.
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anewaname

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Re: HP system
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2022, 09:32:28 pm »

Discard the "HP system" idea.

Think "size" and "material" and "location"... The bigger it is, and the tougher the material is, the more damage it can take. But if you hit a big creature in the neck, you can often kill it in one shot, because the neck is small and vital.

Damage is done by transfer of "kinetic energy". Armor, hide, scales, skin, and fat layers reduce kinetic energy, even if only a small amount, then remaining damage is applied to the flesh and bone, or to organs.
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Salmeuk

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Re: HP system
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2022, 01:19:55 pm »

DF has many shorthand ways to explain very complex systems. often there is an underlying misunderstanding when these shorthand terms are used around here. This likely explains where you found this idea.

We've had ten years to confuse the f outta each other with mis-reported instances and wild, baseless theories about the reality of DF. lol. so don't trust everything you read (though old hats like Bumber, Fleeting Frames, Putnam. .  they dish out the truth)
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Bumber

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Re: HP system
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2022, 07:35:28 am »

Undead did have HP before DF2014. That info's just out of date.
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A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

krestraj2020

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Re: HP system
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2023, 10:53:23 am »

I tried the "gui/gm-editor" in the arena with two animals and this is what happened:

gui/gm-editor->body->components->layer_cut_fraction (layer_dent_fraction)
These numbers are 0 at the beginning, but during the fight these numbers grow.
After a fight, the surviving unit's layer_cut_fraction l ayer_dent_fraction layer_effect_fraction layer_wound_area gradually decreases to 0

During the fight, the gui/gm-editor->body->wounds list is also updated and the statuses of the gui/gm-editor->body-components->body_part_status body parts change

For example, there was a bite in the leg, layer 37 (skin) was touched:
layer_cut_fraction has become equal to=400 , layer_wound_area=3 , layer_dent_fraction=400
body->wounds->wounds[1]->layer[37]->strain=50000
body->wounds->wounds[1]->layer[37]->cur_penetration_perc=100

Within a minute in the arena, "strain" drops to 47700, cur_penetration_perc drops to 77 , body->components ->layer_cut_fraction->[37] drops from 400 to 170

When strain=0 cur_penetration_perc=0 some wounds disappear.
For example, in my case there were still wounds[1]->layer[38](fat) and wounds[1]->layer[38](muscles) and they disappeared by themselves.
But wounds[1]->layer[37](skin) reached the end but did not disappear until I installed wounds[1]->layer[37]->flgs->scar_cut=false

If an untreated wound has zero strain=0 and cur_penetration_perc=0, then it will stop reducing the layer_cut_fraction counter

If you add small values to the layer_cut_fraction counter, then the wound in healing mode (cur_penetration_perc>0) will continue to take away the counter

If a healthy unit increases layer_cut_fraction, then it will not manifest itself, the list of body->wounds will not be added, body->components->body_part_status will not change.


conclusion:
The layer_cut_fraction layer_dent_fraction layer_effect_fraction layer_wound_area variables store the total damage.
I assume that at the moment of impact, damage points are added to the variable and at the same time an object "wounds" is created that heals its layer and simultaneously changes the status of a body part based on damage points.
HP is present in the form of "DamagePoints"
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Putnam

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Re: HP system
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2023, 11:26:28 pm »

They have tissue layers that can have various wounds on top; the wounds aren't as abstract as many, and cause bleeding, loss of function etc. rather than reducing some internal HP thing.

They're not just an "HP" thing and are per-part rather than general