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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 19379 times)

brewer bob

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #150 on: March 18, 2023, 09:26:15 am »

We are the Fascist Italy

Let's then hope Putin meets the same kind of end as Mussolini.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #151 on: March 18, 2023, 01:11:52 pm »

I meanÖ the US doesnít acknowledge the authority of the ICC either, so I donít think itís as big a deal as MaxSpin makes out.
Indeed

anewaname

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #152 on: March 18, 2023, 04:24:53 pm »

The ICC is the best foundation to prevent "might is right" and "ethnic-genocide" groups from committing atrocities in their own countries and in other countries (through overt war or through subversive actions). It focuses on activity that should be condemned in all societies.

There are reasons the USA won't join the ICC, besides the Afghanistan stuff. It gets down to there being too many US politicians whose donors have economic interests in other countries where actions are taken that would be illegal if those actions were taken in the USA.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #153 on: March 18, 2023, 04:40:49 pm »

There's also an argument that the ICC breaks the USA Constitution.  So joining could potentially require an amendment or could be shotdown by a Supreme Court in the future. And good look making that happen nowadays...

If there was enough of a will it could be done, but well...see above for why there isn't that.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 04:53:38 pm by MorleyDev »
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King Zultan

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2023, 01:28:36 am »

That ICC thing sounds like it exists to make people feel better while it doesn't actually do anything for the most part.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2023, 01:44:45 am »

It has a lot bigger impact than it looks, because a number of lower-level people are also getting hit with it. Putin himself is effectively immune, but there's lots of functionaries that are *not*.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2023, 01:58:45 am »

It also says "Hey, rich and influential Russian guys, wanna visit 2\3 of the world without being arrested? Yes? You better do something with this guy before you get similar charges."
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #157 on: March 20, 2023, 09:23:58 am »

I am not sure that Russia is willing to play the role of a junior partner...


Looking at how they welcome their master partner Xi and what Russian propagandists start pushing... I stand corrected. They are willing.
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jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #158 on: March 20, 2023, 09:50:58 am »

That ICC thing sounds like it exists to make people feel better while it doesn't actually do anything for the most part.
It could be a sign that west has lost any hope of finding compromise with Putin, finalizing the break.  Otherwise, it is mostly Symbolic measure, however between casting Putin as a war criminal and the ICC warrant (as impotent as it is) it could help build up Putin's isolation.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 11:56:34 pm by jipehog »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #159 on: March 20, 2023, 05:31:01 pm »

The ICC is the best foundation to prevent "might is right" and "ethnic-genocide" groups from committing atrocities in their own countries and in other countries (through overt war or through subversive actions). It focuses on activity that should be condemned in all societies.

There are reasons the USA won't join the ICC, besides the Afghanistan stuff. It gets down to there being too many US politicians whose donors have economic interests in other countries where actions are taken that would be illegal if those actions were taken in the USA.
It's a consistent stumbling block though which tends to make the world a worse place. Like the league of nations, the USA has the real power to make moral international law carry weight. And like the league of nations, its absence is sorely noted. You end up with situations where the USA is accusing China of breaking the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea by building these coral reef bases in the SCS but then the USA is one of the few non-landlocked nations left who is yet to sign it - it becomes all too easy then for China or Russia to point out "rules for me and rules for thee" and be 100% correct. It may not be idealism to suggest that any real first step towards a rule of law based international diplomacy starts with the most powerful democracy following those rules

jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2023, 01:12:52 am »

[..]
One of Russia's (and China's) core diplomatic goals is exposing the edifice of international law as a paper-tiger sham that only functions as a coercive implement for the US and its allies to threaten countries that aren't playing along, and the problem for the West is that... well, it kind of is. When the ICC makes a pronouncement like this, Russia predictably blows it off, and nothing happens, other nations, particularly in the global south, are watching.
[..]

I didn't agree with much of your framing of that post, but yes that is the narrative Russia is using as part of its (and Chinas) boarder strategic objective and influencing the Global south is high on its agenda. The recent 'grain' deal is in part used by Russia as a play for the global south hearts and minds.

Meanwhile Chinese recent talk of "peace", falls inline with its pro-Russia neutrality stance and isn't something that Ukraine or the West wants but is something that much of the global south desires, which feels the world economic woes much more acutely than the west.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 01:18:35 am by jipehog »
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King Zultan

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2023, 03:40:17 am »

I figured that China has been selling stuff to Russia the entire time, probably in small enough amounts that no one has really noticed yet.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 03:42:00 am by King Zultan »
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heydude6

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2023, 05:51:49 pm »

America likely has no hope of winning over the global south. They are the ones who will be the most affected by climate change and America/The-West-as-a-whole are the main causes of it.

Thereís little one can do to make up for remorselessly causing ecological damage
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2023, 06:11:25 pm »

America likely has no hope of winning over the global south. They are the ones who will be the most affected by climate change and America/The-West-as-a-whole are the main causes of it.

Thereís little one can do to make up for remorselessly causing ecological damage

If we're talking about that, China and the petrostates like Russia are at best complicit in that.

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Random_Dragon

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2023, 06:17:59 pm »

Deciding that going all-in with one gaggle of authoritarians/imperialists/self-destruective corporate oligarchs because you don't like how authoritarian/imperialist/self-destructive the alternative is a time-honored tradition for most countries that didn't already have their allegiances decided for them during the cold war.
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