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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 61159 times)

Ziusudra

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1425 on: September 20, 2023, 08:04:05 am »

All I "know" about Armenia is they were victims of Turkey's war crimes.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1426 on: September 20, 2023, 08:40:41 am »

All I "know" about Armenia is they were victims of Turkey's war crimes.

They were. The problem is that caused Armenians to go rather... right-wing type irrational. A significant part of them openly dream about the Great Armenia with plans to get parts of Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Iran to get back the rightful lands of the most ancient and the most holy nation ever existing.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1427 on: September 20, 2023, 08:52:24 am »

Honestly while I don't think highly of any ultranationalists, at least the Armenian ones have an understandable excuse: revenge for their nation being put through the wringer.

Unlike my country's ultranationalists, who operate not out of revenge but out of raw, unadulterated, "fuck you got mine". They don't even try to hide it. That is much worse.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1428 on: September 20, 2023, 08:53:19 am »

They were. The problem is that caused Armenians to go rather... right-wing type irrational. A significant part of them openly dream about the Great Armenia with plans to get parts of Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Iran to get back the rightful lands of the most ancient and the most holy nation ever existing.
Siege mentality (even justified) usually evolves into revanchist and irredentist sentiments. Proximity to Iran, Russia & Turkey likely doesn't help things, what with their willingness to snip bits of their neighbours off setting the rules of diplomacy on fire

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1429 on: September 20, 2023, 09:12:17 am »

I don't see ultranationalism playing a major role in Russia. Ultranationalism is obsessed with history, traditions, "true religion" and culture be it real or some fever dream like Aryan Nordicism.

Russia doesn't really play history or culture cards beyond "What was once Russia is Russia" or "If people speak Russian they are Russians and should be in Russia."



Quote
Siege mentality (even justified) usually evolves into revanchist and irredentist sentiments. Proximity to Iran, Russia & Turkey likely doesn't help things, what with their willingness to snip bits of their neighbours off setting the rules of diplomacy on fire
Yep, their nation survived a huge trauma and it is an understandable result. It doesn't change that with their attitude (and lack of any economic or military might) will lead their nation to bad places unless they change it to something more fitting for the modern world.

Admitting that doing stuff like turning ancient mosques into pigsties can be a good start.
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1430 on: September 20, 2023, 09:17:17 am »

Quote
Siege mentality (even justified) usually evolves into revanchist and irredentist sentiments. Proximity to Iran, Russia & Turkey likely doesn't help things, what with their willingness to snip bits of their neighbours off setting the rules of diplomacy on fire
Yep, their nation survived a huge trauma and it is an understandable result. It doesn't change that with their attitude (and lack of any economic or military might) will lead their nation to bad places unless they change it to something more fitting for the modern world.

Admitting that doing stuff like turning ancient mosques into pigsties can be a good start.
Yeah. It's pretty tragic seeing shit like China, India, Pakistan, Israel et al emerging from centuries of trauma just to trace the same ugly paths of imperialism and racism that were foist upon them

MaxTheFox

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1431 on: September 20, 2023, 09:18:38 am »

Jingoists might be a better word than ultranationalists, I guess.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1432 on: September 20, 2023, 09:25:09 am »

Jingoists might be a better word than ultranationalists, I guess.
Sometimes ultranationalist is a better fit, just because you do get prominent strains of jingoists who are liberals (e.g. American warhawks are usually very jingoistic but liberal and global in outlook) and you get ultranationalists who are very weak on foreign policy but dickheads at home (e.g. Malaysia or Indonesia being weak in the face of China but willing to destroy centuries old Hindu temples or implement exclusionary civil policies with religious laws)

Random_Dragon

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1433 on: September 20, 2023, 11:10:38 am »

They were. The problem is that caused Armenians to go rather... right-wing type irrational. A significant part of them openly dream about the Great Armenia with plans to get parts of Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Iran to get back the rightful lands of the most ancient and the most holy nation ever existing.

Ah, gotta love it when a country that suffers some nasty shit learns entirely the wrong lessons from that...  :-\
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scriver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1434 on: September 21, 2023, 07:24:35 am »

I think supremacist (all other nations are inferior) and imperialist (weaker nations must/deserve to be dominated/conquered) nationalism fits well. Traditionally they often pair strongly with what Strongpoint defined as ultramationalist as far as I can see, although over here that kind of ultranationalism has taken a backseat to the less specific race nationalism for the last 30 years or so ("race nationalism" here used to describe "white power" and similar movements where they start identifying their race as their nation before their actual nation).

I like to separate supremacist and imperialist bents because while they often come together wholly or partially supremacist nationalism also comes in the more "isolationist" variety that I associate with say English nationalists (I can't say how accurate that is though but it is the impression I have from afar) who are very "we are the best and everybody else are savages" seems to not come with the assumption that the rest of the world should belong to them any more.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1435 on: September 21, 2023, 07:51:51 am »

I think supremacist (all other nations are inferior) and imperialist (weaker nations must/deserve to be dominated/conquered) nationalism fits well. Traditionally they often pair strongly with what Strongpoint defined as ultramationalist as far as I can see, although over here that kind of ultranationalism has taken a backseat to the less specific race nationalism for the last 30 years or so ("race nationalism" here used to describe "white power" and similar movements where they start identifying their race as their nation before their actual nation).

I like to separate supremacist and imperialist bents because while they often come together wholly or partially supremacist nationalism also comes in the more "isolationist" variety that I associate with say English nationalists (I can't say how accurate that is though but it is the impression I have from afar) who are very "we are the best and everybody else are savages" seems to not come with the assumption that the rest of the world should belong to them any more.

I define it as:
-Supremacists believe one group should dominate another. You get very obvious and overt ones like racial supremacists, but then you also get a large category of people who would not self-identify as supremacists who nevertheless believe it's "obvious" that one group should dominate another. E.g. "oh we just work harder and smarter than everyone else, that's why we're at the top."

-Nationalism believes that the goals and interests of the nation supercedes the interests and goals of the individual. Ranges from benign flavours of patriotism to expectations that loyalty to a system is more valuable than questioning whether the system is good to begin with.
Within nationalism you can probably also add the special nationalists, like those who are trying to achieve statehood (e.g. separatists trying to achieve a nation-state from another state's borders, e.g. historical Polish nationalism, Kurdish nationalism or Khalistan nationalism). Or special cases like Taiwanese nationalism or Ukrainian nationalism prior to Russia's support of Donbas separatism & the invasion, where people were building the concept of the national identity. Another way to put it, is that nationalists envision building the largest community of people who identify as a common people.

-Ultranationalism takes this concept of community and then treats anything not part of this "common people" as contaminants, whether by falling afoul of sectarian, religious or racial grounds. Some people tie this into concepts of imperialism and geopolitical darwinism like the fascists and imperialists of the early 20th century, but there have always been ultranationalists who were anti-imperialist. E.g. France and Britain both had fervent anti-imperialists who were also highly xenophobic. The US GOP today has Republicans who are like this, who are fervent believers in American exceptionalism, believe Americans are the best thing ever, but also oppose American interventions and military operations abroad and think the whole "democratic crusade" of jingoistic liberals is just going to waste American resources for the benefit of non-Americans.
Conversely you do get very liberal-minded warhawks who reject the notion of nationalism entirely, yet still advocate for imperialism. In the late 19th century this was very literal liberal imperialism, with British liberal imperialists advocating for increased enfranchisement and moral advancement, whilst also advocating for imperial expansion whether the receivers wanted such liberal generosity at the end of a bayonet. The parallels between then and now with rainbow-flagged reaper drones flying over the middle east at least rhyme

Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1436 on: September 21, 2023, 07:58:58 am »

Back on topic, Ukraine appears to have hit an important Crimean airfield. The base, which supposedly housed a minimum of 12 tactical fighters, was first hit with a drone swarm to overwhelm the air defenses, followed by a salvo of Neptune missiles. Footage of large explosions and great amounts of fire has been circulating.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1437 on: September 21, 2023, 08:08:20 am »

Back on topic, Ukraine appears to have hit an important Crimean airfield. The base, which supposedly housed a minimum of 12 tactical fighters, was first hit with a drone swarm to overwhelm the air defenses, followed by a salvo of Neptune missiles. Footage of large explosions and great amounts of fire has been circulating.
And two patrol ships!

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1438 on: September 21, 2023, 05:10:30 pm »

So, the second season of strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure has begun.

But what warms my heart is that we have some ability to respond in kind. Not to the same extent but... Tula is the first to enjoy an evening without electricity, I am really curious how quickly they will fix it.

Dear Russians who live anywhere close to Ukraine, don't waste your money on petrol generators. Those are crap for continuous use. Get yourself a diesel one. I would also suggest avoiding Chinese generators, batteries, and powerbanks but I doubt that your market will have many alternatives. Also, linking your router directly to a battery is a practical solution, double DC to AC to DC conversion is just silly.
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.

Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1439 on: September 22, 2023, 02:48:53 am »

[...] double DC to AC to DC conversion is just silly.
Spoiler: Obxkcd (click to show/hide)
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