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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 103027 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1815 on: February 15, 2024, 02:39:11 am »

Maybe the solution is to nuke Russia before Russia can nuke space?
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martinuzz

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1816 on: February 15, 2024, 03:05:25 am »

Taking out sattelites can break MAD. If you can't see the nukes being launched, it gets a lot harder to retaliate in time (same goes for stationing space to surface nukes in orbit, can't see their launch either).
Nuking a country that sends nuclear weapons into space might not be that strange of an idea.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1817 on: February 15, 2024, 04:51:05 am »

The more reasonable response to the Russians violating the Outer Space Treaty would be to mass deploy non-nuclear killsats (which don't violate the treaty, as they are not weapons of mass destruction) for the purpose of engaging any offensive weapons deployed as well as conventional ballistic missiles.

Designs for such were finished years ago, but were cancelled due to the end of the Cold War and the possibility of severe diplomatic fallout.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1818 on: February 15, 2024, 07:18:00 am »

According to what I've read, there's no nuclear weapon involved, but a nuclear-powered satellite that electronically jams other satellites. So, no violation of the treaty.

Honestly, I can't get particularly moved about it. Satellite warfare was an inevitable step and this is clearly the time for it to happen, what with the use of Starlink. Russia have also been jamming GPS on the ground for a while now. Satellites are an inherently unreliable technology in an adversarial setting.
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Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1819 on: February 15, 2024, 08:27:16 am »

Killsats of any kind will tend to increase the chance of reaching the Kessler threshold. The handful of conventional killsat tests already done, and the still very low number of unintentional sat-on-sat encounters, worries some people already.

And you couldn't surgically remove a foreign country's platform from space. Get rid of just the one spy-/monitor-sat (let's say by a hypothetical zero-debris EMP-pulse attack, to ignore the issue of an expanding/spreading cloud of schrapnel) just introduces a 'hole' in coverage that other current and imminently launchable replacements can fill (assuming the EMPing country isn't going to immediately assume it can use that gap to launch, which the EMPed country may also be able to assume). The single disabled satellite, assuming it isn't hardened enough to be at least reactivated, is now its own chunk of uncontrollable projectile, meaning that anything else out there has the full onus for adjusting to keep a safe path past/across its orbit. There may be secondary victims within range of the attempt to plug up a particular orbital keyhole, and they might be as much of a problem, perhaps less hardened (civilian-type purpose, not intrinsically pre-hardened against attack, vulnerable whilst passing further away from the ambush position) and likely in similar-period orbits so might even be prime candidates to cross the same path half an orbit hence (or multiple: 1, 1.5, 2, ..., until the differences in resonance sends them 'apart' rather than potentially together), now pure space-junk.


Debris from the attacking kill-sat (and/or from the killed-sat, or ultimately any subsequent collisions that might occur) are probably the thing to ultimately worry about (assuming the initial action, and what happens then on the ground, hasn't stopped anyone from caring too much about anything/anyone still sat above it all in Earth orbit), as it secondary, tertiary, quaternary(, etc) collisions then become increasingly inevitable. Or at least that's the theory. So far not realised (a handful of significant unintended occasions only, and several noted deliberate tests by the Soviet, US, Chinese and Indian (aero)space agencies, at least some of which set up using deliberately decaying orbits). Then there's the Starship Prime-like not-quite-spaceborne testing of potential anti-sat measures.

By today's standards of space-cooperation, it seems that Russia is the most likely to press such circumstances (with conventional attacks against their own 'test' targets) with perhaps eight active tests over the last decade, plus active manouvering of 'shadowing' craft (to relatively close proximity of actual US hardware). Though maybe the US/etc has just done enough to know that their hardware is capable, and the other nations with a space-launch capability have satisfied themselves about their ability to 'thread the needle' and are keeping their full hand close to their chest.

Nuclear material in space isn't that surprising, with numerous RTGs scraping by, and I'd be very surprised if there haven't been more actual weaponised deployments than anyone suspects, perhaps midway between sensible RTG amounts of material and 'full-blown' bomb-sized. But, as with ground warfare, first use of actual nuclear weapons will be a "first-strike of last-resort", with kinetic attacks of various kinds being more easy to fulfil and 'justify' without necessarily tripping things over into WW3 (though it wouldn't really help stop that, either).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2024, 09:09:05 am by Starver »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1820 on: February 15, 2024, 08:47:49 am »

Besides many RITEGs, which aren't really functionally even on a spectrum with nuclear reactors or nuclear bombs except in the very basic "mass of radioactive fuel" sense, there are already several actual nuclear reactors in space, mostly Soviet (the only US one I know about is SNAP-10A), and a few of them have already had various mishaps that have turned out not to be a big deal.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1821 on: February 15, 2024, 10:59:43 am »

Basically a sign he's getting desperate. I'm pretty convinced this is basically saber-rattling to scare the West. I have serious doubts that our government in its current state could actually pull this off in a competent manner.
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Madman198237

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1822 on: February 15, 2024, 11:02:40 am »

There is no continuum between RTG and nuclear bomb. Absolutely none. You cannot turn an RTG into a nuclear bomb. None of the components are equivalent. Not the nuclear material, not the casing, not the thermoelectric couplers that make an RTG an RTG. An RTG will under no circumstances behave like a nuclear bomb. A nuclear reactor ALSO won't behave like a nuclear bomb, but at least there you could theoretically continue to enrich the fuel (assuming it's not a US Navy-esque high-power-density highly-enriched-uranium reactor) to maintain some small amount of commonality.

So no, there are no nukes floating about in space. It would be noticed if somebody had put one there; it's not that easy to hide what a space launch is sending up there really aren't that many of them compared to resources and means available to determine what was launched. Noticed and dealt with either loudly or quietly.
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Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1823 on: February 15, 2024, 12:29:46 pm »

...just to say that I wasn't saying that an "oversized" RHU/RTG could be blown up (i.e. made to blow up, rather than be 'exploively deconstructed'), and neither even a BES-5 or TOPAZ-2 style of actual reactor (not in full supercritically, anyway). The process of making an A-bomb (let alone an H-bomb) actually explode is definitely more than merely having more than enough material to do so. But I would be surprised if something (maybe a dummy item/engineering mockup of equivalent mass and with relevent similar properties of a warhead, even if it's just something with the attatchment points used by a typical MIRV-style single warhead) had not been included within a 'cover' payload and mission as a covert proof-of-concept. I'd mostly look at the 'failures' that achieved initial/transfer orbit but apparently failed to achieve a stated/implied final aim.

But it's an essentially unfalsifiable claim. There are enough even wilder ideas out there about what is 'out there' through black projects.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1824 on: February 15, 2024, 03:18:04 pm »

There is no continuum between RTG and nuclear bomb. Absolutely none. You cannot turn an RTG into a nuclear bomb. None of the components are equivalent. Not the nuclear material, not the casing, not the thermoelectric couplers that make an RTG an RTG. An RTG will under no circumstances behave like a nuclear bomb. A nuclear reactor ALSO won't behave like a nuclear bomb, but at least there you could theoretically continue to enrich the fuel (assuming it's not a US Navy-esque high-power-density highly-enriched-uranium reactor) to maintain some small amount of commonality.

So no, there are no nukes floating about in space. It would be noticed if somebody had put one there; it's not that easy to hide what a space launch is sending up there really aren't that many of them compared to resources and means available to determine what was launched. Noticed and dealt with either loudly or quietly.
That was my initial response as well, but before I posted, I realized that it looks like Starver literally meant that RITEGs contain less fuel, by mass, than nuclear bombs. Which is literally true, even though it is a completely pointless comparison to make.

(Also, Pu238 had been studied as a viable bomb material, although nothing ever came of it [I'm assuming you know that real plutonium bombs use 239], and if you smashed enough RTG fuel together it would reach criticality and irradiate you to death, so at least there's some sense in which the material itself is bomb-adjacent, even if it's not a very good one.)
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1825 on: February 16, 2024, 07:16:24 am »

Navalny was murdered suddenly died in a Russian prison.

What can I say? He was brave and he loved his country. But his death is inconsequential for Russian politics.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1826 on: February 16, 2024, 07:43:00 am »

F

Honestly he had some wacky ass beliefs.
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Madman198237

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1827 on: February 16, 2024, 10:40:44 am »

A nuclear bomb requires more than prompt criticality to be a nuclear bomb. Throwing uranium or plutonium bricks at a pile until it starts glowing a really ominous blue does not a bomb make. And while it may be technically possible to build a bomb with Pu-238, nobody is ever going to do it because that 80-year half-life means lots of spontaneous neutron generations meaning a very high chance of predetonation turning your nuclear bomb into a comparatively unimpressive dirty bomb that also won't trigger any additional stages should it be a thermonuclear device.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1828 on: February 16, 2024, 03:10:37 pm »

Navalny was murdered suddenly died in a Russian prison.

What can I say? He was brave and he loved his country. But his death is inconsequential for Russian politics.
Guy had massive balls going back to Mother Russia after being poisoned. He had to know he was setting himself up for a death sentence. I wonder what was the purpose in his mind.
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heydude6

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1829 on: February 16, 2024, 04:11:33 pm »

Guy had massive balls going back to Mother Russia after being poisoned. He had to know he was setting himself up for a death sentence. I wonder what was the purpose in his mind.

Don't be so quick to assume there was a master plan. Remember Prigrozyn.
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