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Author Topic: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread  (Read 30484 times)

feelotraveller

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2023, 07:15:33 pm »

{snip} But this cannot ever justify attacking anyone other than those directly conducting or supporting violence. {snip}

Oh, absolutely.  But this applies to Israel as well, back then, as well as now.  How many of the 18 800 Palestinians killed in a little over 2 months were "directly conducting or supporting violence"?  And yes Hamas murdered 700-800 relatively innocent civilians and nothing erases that.

(Btw I was not justifying October 7th.)
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hector13

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2023, 07:22:20 pm »

Have they changed the numbers recently? I thought the number of murdered by Hamas was 1200, plus the 250 hostages.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2023, 07:30:11 pm »

It wasn't unprovoked, but if your neighborhood is being attacked by corrupt law enforcement you don't respond by attacking the random people that live in the neighborhoods where that law enforcement is from. You attack the law enforcement itself.

Sure there are basically portions of Israel that are essentially corrupt law enforcement, or gangs that are allowed to operate because of "law enforcement's" blind eye.  But this cannot ever justify attacking anyone other than those directly conducting or supporting violence.  That is, attack should be in proportion to violation. Sure yes the general Israeli population is somewhat culpable, if for no other reason that they don't stand up against violence committed "in the name of Israel", same as some of the residents of Gaza are culpable for not standing up against violence committed "in the name of Palestine."  But is silence or indifference really the same as active participation? If so, then we all deserve ultimate violence, because there is no meaningful distinction of degrees of culpability.

EDIT: is it possible, by definition, for a State to conduct terrorism? Isn't it simply acts of war or (war) crimes? Honest question here, I thought terrorism has a more narrow definition. Otherwise it seems like the term just gets watered down, and absolutely "anything" can be labeled terrorism.

The most broad definition of terrorism is the use of fear-inducing violence to achieve political change. So yeah, countries can do that.


And actions of Palestinians (no, not HAMAS, civilians actively participated in the 7th October's "fun") go beyond cold terrorism. I think calling them terrorists is generous. Monsters or maniacs fit way better. They murdered not to induce fear and force Israelis to do something. They murdered with pure sadistic glee, with genocidal intention, they did it because they enjoyed the process. They also screamed Allahu Akbar while doing so sincerely believing that they are doing something holy
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

feelotraveller

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2023, 08:19:52 pm »

Have they changed the numbers recently? I thought the number of murdered by Hamas was 1200, plus the 250 hostages.

700-800 civilians.  Notably there were well over 300 IDF/Police personnel in the ~1200 (331 comes to mind but I haven't checked recently). 

If you carefully check the 1200 figure (it was originally plastered everywhere as 1400 but Israel was counting about 200 Hamas fighter deaths amongst the toll of those killed by Hamas  ::) ) commonly cited in the media you'll notice that it is always 'mostly civilians' or 'mainly civilians'.  No one talks about the military deaths, which have some credence as being legitimate (military) targets.  Take off also the 60 odd unconfirmed (could well be Hamas, or data error, etc.) and whatever the non-zero number of friendly-fire deaths that the IDF were responsible for.  They definitely killed some, it's a vexed question how many since we only have a handful of personal testimonies to go on (eg. the IDF calling down bombs on an IDF military facility which contained sheltering Israeli citizens as well as occupying Hamas militants, reports of the IDF helicopters firing indiscriminately, a report which I can't find again of an off-duty Israeli policeman being shot in cold blood even though he had his hands in the air and was shouting in Hebrew that he was an Israeli - there may be others).  That gets me to no more than 800, maybe somewhat less.
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anewaname

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2023, 03:53:42 am »

This vid interview of an Israeli soldier was excellent, covering points about the convergence of ideals and the situations of physical conflict; he talks about how they would tell all the Gazans to get out of an area, then anyone left there could be presumed hamas or a collaborator. With so many soldiers and so much weapons fire, either they are using ear protection or they are running around with reduced hearing. The soldier(s) that shot the hostages probably feel like crap about it, but what do you do when your military organization puts you in danger? You try to survive and hope to balance your actions with your morals later. Those soldiers will blame themselves the rest of their lives...

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Bumber

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #95 on: December 18, 2023, 04:59:32 pm »

Er...no. At least not in the Ivys and Ivy-adjacent.
Their University leadership is getting chewed up over their pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel statements.

Harvard?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2023, 06:23:06 pm »

The Pope has gone on record (again) accusing Israel of 'terrorism' after a woman and her daughter were murdered by an IDF sniper on church grounds.
https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/

Evangelicals in the USA will say that eradicating the oldest Christian community is the most Christian thing you can do

After the hostages being mowed down like cattle by IDF soldiers while shirtless and carrying white flags it is entirely clear to me that this whole time the IDF has been just roving around like bandits doing endless massacres in the Gaza Strip. Whether this is direct targeting or absolutely mind-blowing, utter, and casual disregard for human life doesn't matter. It's malice either way.

The killing of hostages was a mistake, but only because they should've been Palestinians.

Terrorist until proven posthumously innocent. Civilians targeted on purpose, civilian infrastructure targeted on purpose, civilian housing targeted on purpose, hospitals raided, mosques and churches bombed - what the actual fuck is going through their heads

World Health Organisation says Gaza's Al Shifa hospital is a bloodbath

Sephardic chief rabbi Yitzhak Yosef wrote a letter to the IDF Chief Rabbi decrying IDF soldiers disrespecting the holy sites of other religions

Meanwhile the IDF Chief Rabbi is being haunted by his controversial answer stating raping non-jewish women in war is theoretically okay

scriver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2023, 07:14:41 pm »

Have they changed the numbers recently? I thought the number of murdered by Hamas was 1200, plus the 250 hostages.

700-800 civilians.  Notably there were well over 300 IDF/Police personnel in the ~1200 (331 comes to mind but I haven't checked recently). 

If you carefully check the 1200 figure (it was originally plastered everywhere as 1400 but Israel was counting about 200 Hamas fighter deaths amongst the toll of those killed by Hamas  ::) ) commonly cited in the media you'll notice that it is always 'mostly civilians' or 'mainly civilians'.  No one talks about the military deaths, which have some credence as being legitimate (military) targets.  Take off also the 60 odd unconfirmed (could well be Hamas, or data error, etc.) and whatever the non-zero number of friendly-fire deaths that the IDF were responsible for.  They definitely killed some, it's a vexed question how many since we only have a handful of personal testimonies to go on (eg. the IDF calling down bombs on an IDF military facility which contained sheltering Israeli citizens as well as occupying Hamas militants, reports of the IDF helicopters firing indiscriminately, a report which I can't find again of an off-duty Israeli policeman being shot in cold blood even though he had his hands in the air and was shouting in Hebrew that he was an Israeli - there may be others).  That gets me to no more than 800, maybe somewhat less.

Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #98 on: December 18, 2023, 08:35:11 pm »

Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.

And...?

Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2023, 03:36:30 am »

So, an anti-Houtis naval task force is forced. I am really curious if it will be 1) Waste millions worth of expensive SAM to shoot down cheap drones. or 2) Actually use the power of modern warships and retaliate by flattening pirate bases
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

scriver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2023, 04:04:18 am »

Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.

And...?

Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?

Yes.

What about that what-aboutism?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2023, 05:30:54 am »

So, an anti-Houtis naval task force is forced. I am really curious if it will be 1) Waste millions worth of expensive SAM to shoot down cheap drones. or 2) Actually use the power of modern warships and retaliate by flattening pirate bases
Trust, it's much cheaper to $2 million per drone than it is to launch a campaign against the houthis without thinking this through. Saudis have been blockading and bombing Yemen with US and UK support, Houthis still managed to grow stronger and acquire ballistic missiles & drones capable of striking gas and oil facilities in saudi arabia. This academic Yadav suggests they're doing this to rally Yemenis who otherwise don't care for the Houthi's political ambitions. Yemen's situation is pretty miserable; humanitarian crises, blockade, rampant inflation, insecurity and war still ravages the country. Leave the country alone and the people are going to look for alternatives to the Houthis. Attack it and the people will rally behind them. It's why even after 7 years of campaigning, proxy warfare and 150,000 people killed from violence later, Houthis are still doing great.

The second major consideration is it's a major crossing of the rubicon moment. If I was the USA I wouldn't be weighing this up as "do I protect the shipping or do I annihilate Houthi bases" instead as "do I protect the shipping or do I start a war that will drag in Israel, Hezbollah, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey et European friends" whilst also trying to protect the Gulf states, Taiwan and Ukraine.
Given that Hamas and Houthis weren't exactly friends I conjecture they're doing their best to embarass Saudi Arabia for trying to normalise relations with Israel, whilst also demonstrating they still posssess the missile capacity to strike Saudi energy infrastructure. Hence why Saudis politely asked USA to chill.

I do think if you got the USA, UK, France, Israel, Italy, Saudi Arabia, Turkey to launch strikes together this coalition would have overwhelming superiority. Yet Israel's ground forces are already bogged down in Gaza, and I recommend this interesting read of a 2002 wargame simulating an invasion of Iran detailing how the red team managed to 1. survive a NATO style combined arms assault preluded by massive air power strikes 2. inflict disproportionate losses on american navy ships using massed missile and missile boat attacks for reasons why any war planner would want to divide and separate the party combatants from one another. So you would just have to accept any such war might end up with Houthis targeting Saudi energy facilities en masse and Hezbollah had in 2018 an estimated 130,000 ballistic missiles stockpiled with more stockpiled since. They've withheld on pain of being NATO'd by the USN carrier groups watching nearby like hawks, but if they start getting bombed it's all up in the air. Ideally, you'd have to get some sort of tacit approval from Iran that action against one of their proxy groups will not escalate to another, because without it the ability to defend energy sites in Saudi Arabia or civilian sites in Israel from a mass saturation missile attack is much more expensive than saying "don't think about it."

feelotraveller

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2023, 06:26:11 am »

Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.

And...?

Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?

Yes.

What about that what-aboutism?


I really don't know what you are going on about. 

Your first comment, while true, seems entirely pointless since no one was saying otherwise. 

(In fact I pretty sure the people I was replying to would like to see war crimes prosecuted as much as I would.)

The post of mine you cited in making it was clearing up Hector's misunderstanding/missing that I had specifically mentioned civilian casualties (and in fact that pavlovian response - apologies in advance Hector - 'but the number was 1200' was making my point for me), and that in turn was part of a rely to McTraveller which was agreement that people specifically engaging in violence could well be regarded as targets in a way that civilians should not be. 

If you had bothered to follow the conversation you would have perhaps been able to follow why certain comments were being made.

If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.
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scriver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2023, 11:59:34 am »

You made clear that you think them being military and police, as opposed to "relatively innocent" civillians, justified what happened to them. I pointed out that civilian deaths weren't the only thing that was wrong that day. That is my point.

If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.
And...?

Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
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dragdeler

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2023, 12:12:09 pm »

I mean, there is the element of consent, live by the sword die by the sword kind of obvious "yeah it's better it happens to the people who subscribed to this bullshit"...
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