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Author Topic: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread  (Read 30486 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #480 on: March 18, 2024, 07:03:46 am »

at this point, isn't it...and I dont take this word lightly mind you, but isnt it genocide to starve (or even attempt to) an entire nation of people? No matter what side you are on or what the other side did, thats very wrong.

Look, I am merely annoyed that the problem is exaggerated in propaganda. There is no famine in Gaza.

As for Israel deliberately starving Gazan population... It is another propaganda exaggeration. The problem of Gaza is not the unavailability of food = more than enough trucks are going in. The problem is that Hamas and other armed groups taking the lion's share of the aid to themselves. Sure, this chaos is caused by Israel but it is what wars do.
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Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #481 on: March 18, 2024, 10:10:47 am »

at this point, isn't it...and I dont take this word lightly mind you, but isnt it genocide to starve (or even attempt to) an entire nation of people? No matter what side you are on or what the other side did, thats very wrong.

Look, I am merely annoyed that the problem is exaggerated in propaganda. There is no famine in Gaza.

As for Israel deliberately starving Gazan population... It is another propaganda exaggeration. The problem of Gaza is not the unavailability of food = more than enough trucks are going in. The problem is that Hamas and other armed groups taking the lion's share of the aid to themselves. Sure, this chaos is caused by Israel but it is what wars do.
There is always propoganda (every which way, as seen above). I acknowledged 'top-slicing' of aid (whoever by, to the detriment of the less able/connected).

There's also markedly less trucks going in, from what wasn't exactly an extravogant amount for the original population:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/aid-trucks-entering-gaza-must-double-meet-basic-needs-wfp-says-2024-03-06/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68551965
..."trucks into gaza" in your search engine gives plenty of results, that you can generally filter by . I didn't both with the Al Jazera link, or even the Grauniad, but you can find many such news items.

By population, Gaza was about two Odessas, or two thirds of a Kyiv, or four Atlanta GA's, or a little less than two times Birmingham (England), already a little short of non-aid supply lines, those lines now cut and the aid component generally considered to be cut back and required even more importantly[1].

Though if you do want 'balance', see the Jerusalem Post's take (problems with that are left as an exercise for the reader) that I had a lgod ook at. (Very annoying "before you leave..." back-page interception script, too, totally messing up my attempt to cross-compare things fully - until I realised what it was referencing.)


[1] You could make the claim that all those casualties has down-adjusted the population, of course. Every cloud has a silver lining, right?
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hector13

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #482 on: March 18, 2024, 11:40:00 am »

That genuinely is an unrealistically low level of variation in the context of combat deaths, and you are now arguing that self-described Jewish sources are inherently untrustworthy because of their presumptively compromised loyalties.

When it comes to criticizing numbers coming from a group dedicating itself to eliminating Jews, sure, and this particular source parroting the line from the Israeli government that Hamas are fluffing the numbers - without evidence - plus the repeated claim of the UNRWA being infested by Hamas fighters which have also not been independently verified.

I don’t like Al-Jazeera as a source on the conflict for similar reasons.

I felt the same way about the numbers coming out of Gaza, until learning it is medics who count the dead and the numbers are considered okay by the UN and WHO and there are NGOs that cross reference then when they can.

Independent sources are preferable, yo.

Anyway, the BBC article also provides something of a response to “unrealistic” combat deaths: the dead need to be taken to a hospital and identified before being officially counted by the medics, who are in an active warzone and presumably have patients to treat and counting the dead is secondary to that.

Supposition, sure, but real life is never as simple as statistics and statisticians try to make it out to be.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #484 on: March 19, 2024, 01:53:27 am »

IMO, Lancet article is incredibly weak. Basically, their argument is "Ratio of UNRWA to non-UNRWA deaths is roughly consistent so that means that all numbers and reported causes of deaths are true"


Quote from: lancet
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data
I never got this argument. It boils down to - "In the past, when Gaza was full of journalists and officials who could easily check it, MoH didn't lie. It means that now, in the fog of war, being almost the only source of information, there is no way MoH started lying."




Plus the main complaint about the Gaza MoH numbers is that combatants seem to be immortal. If they reported 30K dead civilians and added "there is also a number of freedom fighters killed which we won't disclose to not help Israel" credibility would be much better.
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Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #485 on: March 19, 2024, 02:55:56 am »

What proportion of the population are/were combatants?

Probably unusually high (being under siege conditions, even before September), but we're still not talking a Klingon society here. Which causes problems for Israel as unless they are very accurate in their attacks, they're probably killing non-combatants (and certainly inconveniencing large numbers) far more than they're doing significant combatant 'neutralising'.

This is, by its very nature, an assymetric 'war'. Israel is in an unenviable[1] position in which having been clearly wronged by a terrorist attack[2] they then promptly lost most of the international sympathy they had gained from that event (and lost the opportunity to turn that into antipathy-reduction in other quarter) in a far shorter time than the War On Terror became a bit of a polluted cause.

I think I'm repeating myself in that I really don't know how it should have responded to the recently sparking act of incursion by Hamas, but 'not like this' seems clear enough. And the current operation isn't really being made on behalf of the nation (or the jews in the nation, or especially the worldwide jews as a while) but as a strongarm tactic by the particularly xenophobic leadership. (Phobic as either 'fear' or 'hate', but in both cases beyond reasonable and understandable rationality, even taking into account the provably equally judaophobic opponents.)

No, it should not be "turn the other cheek", but following Exodus 21:23-25 as just the starting point is equally unacceptable.


[1] Or should be, but I bet some are looking on in envy, wondering how they could do the same in their own sphere of territory.

[2] Albeit that it was the latest wrong in a string of pushing and shoving between the various viewpoints as to how many such wrongs could be deemed (eventually) to be 'right'.
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Bumber

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #486 on: March 19, 2024, 08:01:51 am »

-snip-

That's a lot of digging for what looks like stuff that can mostly already be found on Media Bias Fact Check:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/tablet-magazine/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-forward/
That just tells you the motive, though. Not if they've made a valid point.

Really more interested in the graph, TBH. The X and Y-axes are linear, so they didn't do anything weird there. If the points on the chart match the actual given data, then this obviously a scatter plot with a strong linear correlation. Deaths just continue to increase at a constant rate each day, with very little deviation from the regression line.

That seems to fail a smell test for how wars are fought. (E.g., selected targets are going to vary in casualties, and the IDF isn't checking confirmed kills against a quota before they stop bombing for the day.) It doesn't strongly prove anything, but it's very questionable. Since the counts are being done by medics, I guess the capacity to count bodies could be increasing linearly? That's still a weird coincidence, though.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 08:33:30 am by Bumber »
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Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #487 on: March 19, 2024, 08:49:01 am »

Really more interested in the graph, TBH. The X and Y-axes are linear, so they didn't do anything weird there. If the points on the chart match the actual given data, then this obviously a scatter plot with a strong linear correlation. Deaths just continue to slowly ramp up at a constant rate per day, with very little deviation from the line
...I'd ask why they highlit just 27/Oct[1] to 10/Nov.

Makes it look like related to this "piecewise" (third row, right-hand side) example. ((edit: also potentially related to the last one, "House Of Cards".)) Selecting a sub-sample of data that doesn't appear to vary much, where immediately either side it definitely does.

(It's even entirely possible that this particular fortnight of data-collection were so disrupted by conditions on the ground that exact timings were impossible to establish for otherwise confirmed counts submitted at intervals less frequently than daily, so the compilers made best-guesses that intentionally or unintentionally smoothed the contrast across these few days'-worth of cumulated detail. Not an issue, if it still builds up to the right total in the larger trend until some nitpick went selectively looking for "something" by p-hacking the data, and found this artefact that nonetheless represents.)

The creator of a graph has the final say over what the data they used is supposed to mean, regardless of what the providers of the data might be doing, and are thus the first step to confirming the claim. Before then moving on to see if is to see if their source has problems. (Source and interpretation may be both problematic, and I give a possible 'honest reason' why this section of a larger graph might be best labelled as problematic, but you can perhaps more easily reject it already if the selected presentation is downright flawed.)


Anybody want to trawl the fuller data, to put into context?


[1] Despite having space sitting there for 26/Oct, they didn't supply that bar... Maybe that bar just didn't fit?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 09:05:41 am by Starver »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #488 on: March 19, 2024, 09:16:23 pm »

Are we really debating whether or not people are starving and/or dying in the Gaza strip?

Bumber

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #489 on: March 20, 2024, 05:41:10 am »

...I'd ask why they highlit just 27/Oct[1] to 10/Nov.

Apparently there was no data provided for Nov 11-12 (why?), and a ceasefire happened right after that. Looks like Oct 26 data fits the line, but just got clipped out.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/



The period from Oct 7 to Oct 26 looks somewhat curved. The period starting at Oct 26 turns linear until the ceasefire.

(It's even entirely possible that this particular fortnight of data-collection were so disrupted by conditions on the ground that exact timings were impossible to establish for otherwise confirmed counts submitted at intervals less frequently than daily, so the compilers made best-guesses that intentionally or unintentionally smoothed the contrast across these few days'-worth of cumulated detail. Not an issue, if it still builds up to the right total in the larger trend until some nitpick went selectively looking for "something" by p-hacking the data, and found this artefact that nonetheless represents.)

Probably should say they're doing that, if that's what happened. Those limitations are noted for other periods.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 06:06:52 am by Bumber »
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Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #490 on: March 20, 2024, 08:17:33 am »

(It's even entirely possible that this particular fortnight of data-collection were so disrupted by conditions on the ground that exact timings were impossible to establish for otherwise confirmed counts submitted at intervals less frequently than daily, so the compilers made best-guesses that intentionally or unintentionally smoothed the contrast across these few days'-worth of cumulated detail. Not an issue, if it still builds up to the right total in the larger trend until some nitpick went selectively looking for "something" by p-hacking the data, and found this artefact that nonetheless represents.)

Probably should say they're doing that, if that's what happened. Those limitations are noted for other periods.
Maybe they did say that. Maybe there were a whole lot of caveats about how they have to deal with minor difficulties of compiling the data, all understandable and none of them changing the long-term accuracy. The graph-makers may have decided to not pass on the caveats (especially if it was contrary to their intended interpretation...).

You presented a graph that did not have any kind of caveat (nor "limitations noted for other periods"), seemingly aware of common 'graphing tricks' like non-linear axes that might mean either an objection is raised or that you whould raise one yourself (although, in the right circumstances, something like a log-normal or log-log layout showing a linear trend is exactly what you'd expect from perfect data) but missing all kinds of other issues that were at least a problem with the view being presented.

Looking at the new graph, you can see that the decision of the (...briefly checks link...) March 7th article to highlight a two week period of data originating from nigh-on half a year ago was clearly being selective for a 'notable' artefact, as I thought. All else aside (yes, the new graph quotes various missing/vague periods[1], but need not be exhaustive of all passing issues), that doesn't look like a particularly manipulated set of data anywhere like the original complaint alleged (and carefully contrived its window on the data to 'prove').

Clusters (or the lack of clusters) can always be found if you go looking into data with an eye for supporting a presupposed agenda.

In reality, I'd expect a less massaged (<= still need not be 'manipulated', in a meaningful way, just a degree of being nicified for viewing) set of data to be very ragged (e.g.[2][3][4][5]). But the seperation of presentation from source is always a consideration. And observer bias can spin the stories told all kinds of ways. Direct stories or meta ones.

("Lies, damn lies and statistics", indeed...)

[1] The pre-truce flatness and the post-truce jump aren't explained by the given caveats. A critical eye on the trend certainly ought to consider these features. If you want me to speculate (here from my armchair, and not going out of my way to check for supporting evidence), it just looks like deaths had been happening at almost the same rough rate as before, just unrecorded for some reasons still not noted. Removing a number of truce-defered combat deaths that did not happen, you can imagine the underlying death-rate (perhaps from humanitarian failures, or those attacked by pre-truce actions who then succumbed (or were finally found, dead all along, in the rubble of buildings) days later) continuing during the hidden gaps and delays in the data-gathering process. Moreover, if the reporting methods involved up to a week of delay from (recorded) death up to finding itself on graphs (maybe becase of the required cross-checking for accuracy) then the pre-truce disruptions (the "storm before the calm") cause the flattening in that region. The 31/Nov to 2/Nov period was mostly 'catch up' while they tried to return to their original thoroughness. - Noting that I'm not saying that I trust the underlying data unconditionally, but (given not unreasonable assumptions) a real-world situation could quite easily translate to such an ultimately truthful trend, despite the fog of war and other issues.
[2] Here 'nicified' for viewing by a rolling average, instead.
[3] By this time, the infrastructure of the territory is even more disrupted, naturally. Which means less desk-jockeys getting in the way of the (sporadic) reporting procedures.
[4] And, of course, it's actually data leading up to publication, rather than cherry-picked from history.
[5] Also, to forestall misunderstanding, that's of courze a 'reported per day' bar-graph, rather than a 'cummulated total' one.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #491 on: March 20, 2024, 10:23:20 am »

seemingly aware of common 'graphing tricks' like non-linear axes that might mean either an objection is raised or that you whould raise one yourself (although, in the right circumstances, something like a log-normal or log-log layout showing a linear trend is exactly what you'd expect from perfect data) but missing all kinds of other issues that were at least a problem with the view being presented.
Just as an aside, I'd be happy if I could never hear this dumb take again as long as I live. Non-linear axes are not a "graphing trick". There are no "graphing tricks". When people complain about "misleading graphs", it is usually because they did not understand what the graph was trying to convey.

The level of data literacy out there is depressingly low.

ETA: Anyway, look. You can look for reasons to believe the suspicious-looking data coming out of an arm of a terrorist organization while convincing yourself you're engaging in skepticism by doing so, or you can accept that there's room for doubt and we should not necessarily trust either party. You do not HAVE to take a side. And no, the UN (who trusts the UN, anyway?) or the Lancet (who trusts the Lancet?! Why would a medical journal even have an opinion on data forensics?!?) saying that they can't prove the data is wrong doesn't convince me of anything.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 10:49:13 am by Maximum Spin »
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #492 on: March 20, 2024, 11:06:39 am »

Quote

BTW, there weren't. UNRWA claimed it for more fundonhg
Are we really debating whether or not people are starving and/or dying in the Gaza strip?

More like debating how accurate casualty numbers are and how severe food shortages are.

I don't have a strong opinion on the losses in Gaza. I have zero Trust in Hamas sources but for a war of this scale 30K is plausible. Even 50K or 100K would be plausible especially if you count indirect civilian losses from the lack of proper medical care, war-zone banditism and similar stuff.

What I am more interested in is the combatants to non-combatants ratio.



But I firmly believe that "starvation" or "imminent starvation" is pro-Palestinian propaganda BS.
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #493 on: March 20, 2024, 11:13:09 am »

Indeed, if the grapher isn't completely disingenuous (or incompetant), you can probably work out what reality is. Though the unwary or willingly misled can find themselves drawn to wrong conclusions, and others might cynically allow that to happen, one way or another. The exact choice of graph format can be a bonus or a problem, for each party. It may be what you don't include, as much as what you do.

(@SP: exagerated, maybe, but not without a definite and proven basis in truth. Can't really be considered BS in the fullest sense, though I know you're firmly leaning that way. And you messed up your quote-levels and reply, somehow.)
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #494 on: March 20, 2024, 11:25:02 am »

Indeed, if the grapher isn't completely disingenuous (or incompetant), you can probably work out what reality is. Though the unwary or willingly misled can find themselves drawn to wrong conclusions, and others might cynically allow that to happen, one way or another. The exact choice of graph format can be a bonus or a problem, for each party. It may be what you don't include, as much as what you do.
No, this is a campaign to reduce data literacy while making people feel like they're smart.
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