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[Bumber]

Yeah, exactly. So don't commit war crimes and don't get war crimed.

He says, while justifying war crimes…

We’re just going round in circles son.

Justification isn't advocation.

This war would be less horrible if both sides agreed to not do this (and it is what Geneva and other conventions are all about) but they don't.

Back at square one.

[hector13]

PS. Good job calling Ukrainian soldiers who defend their land with effective tactics disgusting just because they don't follow some minor rules of the Geneva Conventions which are completely ignored by Russia. They dare to wage war how people waged those wars for centuries.

He said that in reply to me saying Ukrainian war criminals should be punished, too, though he was slightly less polite before the edit.

Also: https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/justify

Advocate is a strong match synonym, soooo…

[EuchreJack]

Alright folks, we got some real news to report, and it calls for some real speculation:
UN Security Council passes resolution calling for ceasefire

Now, this could be the first step towards UN Peacekeepers being deployed to enforce the ceasefire.

Speculation

[hector13]

It won’t amount to anything I don’t think. Israel doesn’t like the UN and I don’t think it’s a binding resolution anyway.

About the only thing is it makes a bit more official US opposition to the way Israel is prosecuting the war.

[Bumber]

Advocate is a strong match synonym, soooo…

Yet "argue for" is a weak match, for some reason. Strongpoint is clearly rationalizing more than campaigning or championing. He called it "horrible".

[hector13]

Advocate is a strong match synonym, soooo…

Yet "argue for" is a weak match, for some reason. Strongpoint is clearly rationalizing more than campaigning or championing.

… it’s still a match.

To be perfectly honest I should have clocked condone as being one of the strong matches. Ah well.

I mean if you want to argue semantics we’ve got condone, defend, favour, support, validate, and warrant as other strong matches alongside rationalise.

This is getting boring though, the going in circles.

[Bumber]

I mean if you want to argue semantics we’ve got condone, defend, favour, support, validate, and warrant as other strong matches alongside rationalise.

And I'll give you all of those except favour and (maybe) support.

This is getting boring though, the going in circles.

It's basically over, actually. I don't think there's any more points to be made.

[Starver]

Things may become 'messy', in wartime, but there are hard and fast obligations to punish grave violations (which go well beyond accidents, carelessness or misunderstandings).

Tell us more about how Russia is being punished hard and fast for its violations.

Whataboutism.

And already allowed for in the very next sentence that you cut off, even if I hadn't actually considered this point would even be raised:

If they haven't always been, this is a failing of those charged to uphold and comply with the Convention, not any wishy-washiness of its own.

It's not like due process hasn't been attempted for (some) Russian war crimes.


...not that I imagine you're satisfied with any of that.

[Starver]

No, the UN can tell Israel that they will be letting the trucks through. It's just, maybe they're slightly concerned that the truck is going to be hit by artillery shells, etc., in an active war zone. Or raided by Hamas. (You know, that other participant in the war.)

A thorough example of what 'both sides' (not of the conflict, but of the aid/blockade thing) are saying: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68659025

Take from it what you will...

[MorleyDev]

4) While there is certain excessive hate in Ukrainian society I hope to never live to see a day when Ukrainians will drag a half-naked body of a likely raped to death Russian woman over the streets of some Ukrainian city with crowds celebrating a bloody raid into a Russian city. If I do, I'll consider a different self-identification. Don't compare my nation to... those people with a culture of institutionalized hate.

Uh-huh, and if Ukrainians were like Hamas or Israel in tactics against Russian cities, I'd be advocating only providing humanitarian aid and not military aid. Guess what my stance on Israel/Gaza is?

Both sides deserve humanitarian aid, neither side is deserving of military aid. Hamas may be worse than Israel in many ways, but they already don't get military aid from the West. Israel do get military aid from the West. That's the issue I take. That innocent families and innocent medics are killed with Western-supplied bullets.

[Strongpoint]

4) While there is certain excessive hate in Ukrainian society I hope to never live to see a day when Ukrainians will drag a half-naked body of a likely raped to death Russian woman over the streets of some Ukrainian city with crowds celebrating a bloody raid into a Russian city. If I do, I'll consider a different self-identification. Don't compare my nation to... those people with a culture of institutionalized hate.

Uh-huh, and if Ukrainians were like Hamas or Israel in tactics against Russian cities, I'd be advocating only providing humanitarian aid and not military aid. Guess what my stance on Israel/Gaza is?

Both sides deserve humanitarian aid, neither side is deserving of military aid. Hamas may be worse than Israel in many ways, but they already don't get military aid from the West. Israel do get military aid from the West. That's the issue I take. That innocent families and innocent medics are killed with Western-supplied bullets.

I understand your logic but can't agree with it.

Was providing military aid to the USSR during WW2 wrong then? I can guarantee you that they used American weapons in war crimes. And the difference between Stalin's USSR and the Third Reich was... minimal. But the USSR was the US ally, it is what mattered.

The reality of the Gaza war is very simple.

1) Israel is a democratic, multiethnic, multireligious, almost secular, LGBT-tolerant, West-aligned country with a sizeable opposition that wishes to make the country more liberal, a military ally of the US in the region.
2) Their enemies are fascist militarists, a theocracy with a culture dreaming of genocide, strictly monoethnic, they execute LGBT people on the spot, hate America and "the West" almost as much as Israel, and have no meaningful opposition that is remotely democratic.

Isn't it obvious that it is in American interests and in accordance with American values to help 1 to defeat 2?

Are there problems in Israel? Oh yes... Not nearly as severe as anti-Israel propaganda presents but the mere fact that have shit like Ben Gvir as a minister is enough to be wary and worried about the degradation of Israel. Are they the most progressive, tolerant, liberal, free country in the Middle East? Also yes.
(BTW, US has fascist theocracy-seeking politicians, too)

Finally, if you provide military aid to a country in a war, that means you have some leverage over how they act in the war. If you don't - you don't.

[MorleyDev]

The thing is, every time the West (America or Western Europe) try and pick a 'lesser evil' in the Middle East they just wind up creating the next problem in the region.

And America have been cautioning Israel on making their strikes much more precision and have been ignored. The current government of Israel have so far demonstrated a disregard for American attempts to 'pull their leash', at a certain point you have to actually show a willingness to act on that and actually start to withdraw the support otherwise the threat carries no meaning.  The support has to be conditional (and repeated documented instances of events like firing on an ambulance you agreed to let through, that was trying to reach the fleeing civilians you asked to evacuate the area, damn well breaks the conditions).

It seems the US has finally taken the first steps towards actually doing that, though to my mind that has taken too long.

A strong and increasingly expansionist Israel is going to be a bad outcome for people of the Middle East, just as a strong standing and defiant Hamas would be.

(And yes, allowing the USSR to emerge from WW2 too strong can be regarded as one of the missteps of WW2).

[King Zultan]

Seems like every time I leave this forum for the weekend this thread blows up into a massive shit fest of arguing.

[MaxTheFox]

Seems like every time I leave this forum for the weekend this thread blows up into a massive shit fest of arguing.

ikr, I've been abstaining from discussing this conflict (everywhere, not just on Bay12, though overall I mostly support Palestine) but I still read this thread out of morbid curiosity.

[King Zultan]

Seems like every time I leave this forum for the weekend this thread blows up into a massive shit fest of arguing.

ikr, I've been abstaining from discussing this conflict (everywhere, not just on Bay12, though overall I mostly support Palestine) but I still read this thread out of morbid curiosity.

I'm still reading the thread partly because of curiosity and partly because the unnotify button doesn't work.