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Author Topic: Crime  (Read 2856 times)

RavingManiac

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Crime
« on: June 23, 2008, 12:09:31 am »

Currently, the justice system is rather redundant in a working fortress, with punishments being counterproductive, I propose a change to this.

*Dwarves will have a scale measuring how likely they are to commit a crime:
Very-well behaved
Well-behaved
Normally-behaved
Badly-behaved
Very-badly behaved

*With a frequency depending on the behaviour level, happiness and thirst/hunger/wealth, a dwarf will commit a crime.

*In a theft, the item stolen will be related to what the dwarf lacks the most. A hungry dwarf will steal food, a thirsty dwarf will steal rum and a poor dwarf will steal coin. Dwarves will steal from stockpiles and pickpocket other dwarves. Dwarves pickpocketed will get an unhappy thought.

*Building destruction will be based entirely on behavior level, simulating vandalism out of mischief.

*Murder frequency will be based on behavior and happiness, and the target will be the person the dwarf likes the least. (refer to http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6134.0)

*Guards will patrol along player-selected routes. If a guard sees a dwarf in the act of crime, the dwarf will be arrested and punished. Dwarves may fight back and resist arrest. The punishment will be the usual jail/hammerstrike/beating, based on the severity of the crime.

*After being punished, the dwarf will get an unhappy though, but his behavior-level will increase, reducing crime in the long-run. Every dwarf in the fortress will also have a slight behavior level increase. Behavior levels decrease steadily over time, preventing a fortress from eventually becoming a crime-free hippieland. Edit: Crimes unpunished will generate a happy thought and decrease behavior level for the dwarf.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:49:34 am by RavingManiac »
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Thief:"Quiet kitty, Qui-"
Cat:"THIEF! Protect the hoard from the skulking filth!"
The resulting party killed 20 dwarves, crippled 2 more and the remaining 9 managed to get along and have a nice party.

Erk

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Re: Crime
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2008, 01:36:15 am »

I was going to suggest something almost identical to this, but you beat me to it by about five minutes. Are you actually me from the future?
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Draco18s

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Re: Crime
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2008, 02:15:48 am »

Every dwarf in the fortress will also have a slight behavior level increase. Behavior levels decrease steadily over time, preventing a fortress from eventually becoming a crime-free hippieland.

Is there anyway other than punishment to increase behavior?  As is you're looking at a crime downward spiral in general.
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RavingManiac

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Re: Crime
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2008, 02:31:15 am »

Every dwarf in the fortress will also have a slight behavior level increase. Behavior levels decrease steadily over time, preventing a fortress from eventually becoming a crime-free hippieland.

Is there anyway other than punishment to increase behavior?  As is you're looking at a crime downward spiral in general.
Its not a downward spiral. Behavior levels decrease -> more crime -> more punishment -> behavior levels increase
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Thief:"Quiet kitty, Qui-"
Cat:"THIEF! Protect the hoard from the skulking filth!"
The resulting party killed 20 dwarves, crippled 2 more and the remaining 9 managed to get along and have a nice party.

Erk

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Re: Crime
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2008, 03:10:49 am »

I'd like to see behaviour levels decrease in response to a stimulus, though. Perhaps certain negative thoughts would cause a decrease in behaviour, as would being the victim of a crime. Thus deaths in the family might cause a dwarf to have a serious behaviour downturn, especially the death of a parent for a child.
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Draco18s

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Re: Crime
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 11:21:02 am »

Is there anyway other than punishment to increase behavior?  As is you're looking at a crime downward spiral in general.
Its not a downward spiral. Behavior levels decrease -> more crime -> more punishment -> behavior levels increase

Yes, however I would like to not need to punish everyone one of my dwarves.  I suppose what I could do is take the bad ones and just kill them, because then I'd be left with only the dwarves who aren't inclined to steal/etc.

Not everyone breaks laws and need not the disinclination of watching those who have get punished.
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perilisk

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Re: Crime
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 12:53:42 pm »

Generally, I think what would increase the crime levels would be the steady influx of low-skill immigrants over time, especially once you get an Economy. Lack of hauling jobs = unemployment = poverty and free time = crime. Of course, you could draft some of them, but with a proper economy you'd need to raise taxes to pay the new guards, which would make everyone you didn't draft that much poorer.

Obviously, if you work hard to add multiple workshops and try to insure everyone is employed, crime should be minimal, but most players are going to be more worried about defense and specialize their crafters. That said, if people are dying left and right, you might expect the dwarves to be a bit nihilistic about property rights.
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Granite26

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Re: Crime
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 01:16:17 pm »

FDR = TVA = Make a stone pile on one side of the map, then make a stone pile on the other side of the map and have them hall back and forth.  Everybody must gets paid.

I like that dwarves don't commit crimes.  I'd support the existance of a [criminal] tag, or even a racial/cultural/individual set of how law abiding you are tags.  (I.E. a dwarf in a dwarven civ would never think to commit a crime, but a human raised in a dwarven civ MIGHT, depending on the human.)

Anyway, I've always viewed dwarves as the easy mode for the game, with humans to be a harder game added later.  (No caves to hide in, no infinite stone, less 'pliable' citizenry, etc).  I guess I just want to have playing the different races be very different based on emergant behaviors coming from the identity tags.

Mikademus

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Re: Crime
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 01:20:09 pm »

Behavior levels decrease -> more crime -> more punishment -> behavior levels increase

This is a false assumption. In fact, research in sociology and criminology, sometimes with a research history all the way back to the 1890s, indicate that harsher punishment quite the opposite increase the frequency, severity and relapse risk of crime.

Dwarf mileage may vary.
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Granite26

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Re: Crime
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 01:25:05 pm »

Of course, you could draft some of them, but with a proper economy you'd need to raise taxes to pay the new guards, which would make everyone you didn't draft that much poorer.

They'd only get poorer relatively.  The whole system is a broken/half finished economic model.  It prices everything, but doesn't take supply into account.  Long story short, there's more than enough production to keep all your dwarves happy, the economy just makes sure that every dwarf puts in his share of work.

Techhead

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Re: Crime
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 06:02:17 pm »

No one has said this yet, so I probably shall be the first to do so.
*Ahem*

Dwarven Crime Squad
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WHAT?  WE DEMAND OUR FREE THINGS NOW DESPITE THE HARDSHIPS IT MAY CAUSE IN YOUR LIFE
It's like you're all trying to outdo each other in sheer useless pedantry.

perilisk

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Re: Crime
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 09:30:25 pm »

FDR = TVA = Make a stone pile on one side of the map, then make a stone pile on the other side of the map and have them hall back and forth.  Everybody must gets paid.

Well, that roughly matches the dwarven economy for now. But it's only marginally different from the commie mode that you start with, which makes me wonder what the point is. You can already assign better rooms to your valuable dwarves, and ideally you could assign items to dwarves too (it would make outfitting your soldiers much easier, at the very least -- not really a case where hands-off makes sense).

If the point is to test market behavior, then dwarves themselves have to have, or pretend to have, some initiative in creating tasks for other dwarves. You would still have to hire public workers (refuse haulers, guards, administrators), which would mean finding a way to tax a barter economy. Difficult enough when dwarf-bucks are just fixed properties of an item, but a true economic simulation would suggest that the value of an item at any given time, for a given dwarf, is related to a dwarf's situation and personality. In fact, an economic simulation that doesn't assume personally variant value is pointless, because every distribution of property is identically good from a utilitarian perspective. Only labor distribution can produce different results, thus the current system of communal property and labor management.

Generally, if dwarves had a concept of informal credit (internally tracked IOUs as part of their "relationships") supplemented with barter, that would work well enough for a 7-dwarf economy. As things got more complicated, you could have a "trader" admin job whose sole role is to assemble a behind-the-scenes list of supply and demand, and facilitate mutually beneficial exchanges between dwarves (and take a chunk of the leftover utility). But the mechanics would require a lot more complexity; I'm not sure it's worth it at the moment, or ever. Of course, I can't imagine a better game than DF for modeling an economy (MMOs are usually less realistic), so maybe one day it will happen.

Wow, I need to cut down on response length.

Oh, but sort-of back on topic -- if poverty creates crime, and personality dictates how likely dwarves are to commit certain crimes, then perhaps an option for more law-abiding dwarves who can't find work is emigration?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 09:33:01 pm by perilisk »
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slMagnvox

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Re: Crime
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 11:48:18 pm »

Nevermind the economy, crime sounds fun.

I want to see the message Baron Adil Onulreg has arranged an execution at the Bronze Guillotine and see some dwarves hanging around with an Attend Execution job.

Having certain dwarves with a propensity for crime, with Dwarven Justice as a deterrent, would make that aspect of gameplay more fun with better incentives for setting up an efficient Fort Guard and a surplus of cages and chains.
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Granite26

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Re: Crime
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2008, 09:37:05 am »


Oh, but sort-of back on topic -- if poverty creates crime, and personality dictates how likely dwarves are to commit certain crimes, then perhaps an option for more law-abiding dwarves who can't find work is emigration?

I kind of like the emigration solution for extremely unhappy (broke, etc) dwarves.

MMO's are an economy in the sense that there are numerous independant agents all performing tasks to generate or acquire wealth.  They just aren't normal market economies, largely because the creation and transfer of goods is artificially controlled.

You're definitely right about the valuation of objects by individuals, it's hellah complex, but required to create a sense of entropy in the system.  Wouldn't need a dwarf to do it, just emulate the free market by saying that the cost is equal to the nth highest price someone is willing to pay, where n is the number of items, floored at the cost of production +10%*time.  (time says that a job that takes a long time is more valuable than a short one.)  It would make trading a lot more interesting, because those mudstone amulets would flood the market (since they are by nature cheap), but if you are on a map with a lot of gold, the trade value would stay high due to the agregate world demand (probably a constant generated at world creation) being high.  You'd be trading gold idols away for tons of 'cash' but your own dwarves would be walking around with gold flip-flops and stuff.

Anyway, I like the behavioural science possibilities of fiddling with different economic models in the raws to find what works best, with a different works best for each race as they are defined in the raws.

I suppose the interesting question is, what makes dwarves happy; More stuff, or more stuff than the next dwarf over?  (Seems like a racial/cultural/personal raw tag in the making there, or rather a set of them.)

Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Crime
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2008, 09:37:51 am »

You'd have to have gentleman criminals though, like a baron who sneaks out at night to steal artifacts and keep them in a secret stash.
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