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Author Topic: The NEW Future of the Fortress  (Read 334790 times)

Granite26

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1110 on: December 19, 2008, 02:04:12 pm »

Damn. I disagree with Granite26 on a lot. I think what is considered attractive should vary from culture to culture (which has some support in Power Goals as well - see "magical idiot peeper"). And I love the dwarven warriors carrying their babies into battle. I think male dwarves should do it too.

I'll take science and evolution any day

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While a specific culture may value a specific feature highly, on the whole, the average is more appreciated, and besides, specific cultures look different, so they'll have different averages.  (A human and an elf will have different ideas what the prettiest elf is).

Finally, personal preferences interact with absolute measurements all the time.  People are perfectly capable of saying 'beautiful but not my type'

(I'll refain on trying to prove that carrying children into battle is at best an outrageous abuse of the rule of cool, and at worst a guaranteed method of genicide if implimented in world gen)

Appelgren

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1111 on: December 19, 2008, 02:15:29 pm »

Well, of course there is a biological component to what we find beautiful - and the "average" of many faces tend to produce symmetry which is one of the traits that is commonly considered beautiful. But ask any ethnologist or historian (which are also fields of science) and you'll find that what has been considered beautiful has varied greatly between different cultures and ages. And more importantly different ideals in different civilizations would make for a more interesting game than an universal standard.

And yes, the children carrying is not realistic. But, for me the coolness factor outweighs such concerns.
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umiman

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1112 on: December 19, 2008, 02:23:49 pm »

Technically speaking, all our principles of beauty aren't defined by logic but by hormones and biological impulses; just like our ability to think and reason. To the best of our scientific knowledge, beauty isn't something we understand but is something we know. Funny isn't it?

Granite26

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1113 on: December 19, 2008, 02:39:09 pm »

and you'll find that what has been considered beautiful has varied greatly between different cultures and ages.

... It's not actual text(so I can't copy it here), but the first link I posted (cause I tend to do my research before talking) shows that against common misperception, previous eras' conceptions of beauty do conform remarkably well to our own.  (This is especially true if when you accept that most people don't consider stick figures to be the height of beauty, but that IS my own opinion).

Sorry if I'm getting cranky and argumentative...

Random832

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1114 on: December 19, 2008, 02:50:23 pm »

and you'll find that what has been considered beautiful has varied greatly between different cultures and ages.

... It's not actual text(so I can't copy it here), but the first link I posted (cause I tend to do my research before talking) shows that against common misperception, previous eras' conceptions of beauty do conform remarkably well to our own.  (This is especially true if when you accept that most people don't consider stick figures to be the height of beauty, but that IS my own opinion).

Sorry if I'm getting cranky and argumentative...

I suspect what varies between cultures is what's seen as problematic - i.e. the same absolute qualities are preferred, but since modern western culture has an obesity problem, unattractive people are overweight in greater quantities than underweight, so the same baseline (healthy, not stick-thin) is "thin" in comparison to a large number of e.g. Americans - which doesn't mean that we consider thinner people attractive than did past cultures.
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Footkerchief

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1115 on: December 19, 2008, 02:58:33 pm »

Granite -- keep in mind that we're talking about a system for defining standards of beauty that could be applied to any creature, and the preference of extremes over averages certainly does occur in nature (peacock feathers, bright plumage, etc.).

Cultures vs. biology is important too.  Perhaps each species could have its own sweet spot for each appearance "slider" (i.e. an optimal value somewhere between the min and max), maybe on a per-caste basis, while each culture could bias those standards to an arbitrary degree.  So you'd have your average-loving humans if you wanted them, but you could also have all goblins having a thing for really pointy noses, except for one perverse goblin civ that likes pointy ears instead.
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Appelgren

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1116 on: December 19, 2008, 03:05:37 pm »

and you'll find that what has been considered beautiful has varied greatly between different cultures and ages.

... It's not actual text(so I can't copy it here), but the first link I posted (cause I tend to do my research before talking) shows that against common misperception, previous eras' conceptions of beauty do conform remarkably well to our own.  (This is especially true if when you accept that most people don't consider stick figures to be the height of beauty, but that IS my own opinion).

Sorry if I'm getting cranky and argumentative...

It's ok, though I don't want to turn this into some sort of elongated debate about nature v.s. nurture (I've had my fair share of those and they never lead anywhere). While some features are considered beautiful in most cultures and times it is also very easy to point out ideals of beauty specific to certain cultures and times - also often (but not always) highlighting features that would be advantageous from an evolutionary perspective (fat in times and places where food is a rarity, small breasts in times in times when having lots of kids is as a sign of poverty et.c.). But, as someone pointed out, such cultural diversity could very well coexist with the system you are describing. So maybe this is a pointless debate. But if I had to choose, I'd rather have the game simulate the undeniable differences in ideals of beauty between cultures than the likewise undeniable similarities.
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Granite26

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1117 on: December 19, 2008, 03:06:46 pm »

Granite -- keep in mind that we're talking about a system for defining standards of beauty that could be applied to any creature, and the preference of extremes over averages certainly does occur in nature (peacock feathers, bright plumage, etc.).

Cultures vs. biology is important too.  Perhaps each species could have its own sweet spot for each appearance "slider" (i.e. an optimal value somewhere between the min and max), maybe on a per-caste basis, while each culture could bias those standards to an arbitrary degree.  So you'd have your average-loving humans if you wanted them, but you could also have all goblins having a thing for really pointy noses, except for one perverse goblin civ that likes pointy ears instead.

Good points... I especially like the peacock example....

KaelGotDwarves

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1118 on: December 19, 2008, 03:35:54 pm »

Speaking of which, from a quick read through the new raws...

Should eye and nerve damage hurt more? It's at stock 5 pain now.

I understand if internal organs get damaged it'll cause internal bleeding so that's why those aren't so high.

*Goes off to make humans inside mech exoskeletons*

Roundabout Lout

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1119 on: December 19, 2008, 03:37:22 pm »

Hmm. But will bp descriptions be visible in adv. mode?
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1120 on: December 19, 2008, 03:53:35 pm »

I forgot to mention: Toady, how hard would it be to add variable stat advantages/disadvantages to creatures much like DAMBLOCK or SPEED?

I'm talking a natural agility/strength/toughness/endurance boost or reduction.

Because right now what we have to differentiate animals is SIZE that affects most of those or by completely turning it off completely through NOPAIN type tags.

Appelgren

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1121 on: December 19, 2008, 04:05:24 pm »

Just to take another example to show you how I think - food. We humans are biologically wired to prefer certain tastes - for good reason. For example, many bitter plants are poisonous and thus we have adapted to avoid bitter foods. But many cultures still learned to appreciate food like coffee, beer and olives. And the Aztecs were very fond of their xocolatl, literally meaning bitter water. What some consider mild food others find to be so spicy it is almost inedible (though many people can learn to appreciate it). All my Russian friends hate Swedish salt liquorice, and I detest their honey flavoured caramels. And while there are a lot of common denominators - I would rather have a game simulate the differences between cultures than go with something like "sweet tasting things are scrumptious - bitter tasting things are unpleasant" for everyone - though that has been a constant theme through all times and cultures.

But anyway a system for determining what people generally find delicious and further specification for different cultures are not mutually exclusive - just as is the case with beauty. So - perhaps this post is pointless. I have just spent too much time typing it not to post it.

EDIT: OK. This was admittedly a pointless post. Sorry.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 04:09:13 pm by Appelgren »
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Mr.Person

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1122 on: December 19, 2008, 05:07:58 pm »

Blarg, if we want to draw pixel art for all the possible dwarf, elf, human, goblin, and kobold combinations of height, weight, hair color, length, and shape, complexion, scaring, and whatever else, we better start now ;D

Only a system like IVAN's would work here.
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Youtube video of the year, all years.
Hmm...I've never been a big fan of CCGs - I mean, I did and still do collect Pokemon cards, but I never got heavily into the battling and trading thing.

By definition that makes you a fan since you still buy them.

Patarak

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1123 on: December 19, 2008, 07:44:26 pm »

Erm, will those variables in the material raws that Toady says are unused be used further down the update? I do hope so.Not that I understand what most of them mean. They sound based on engineering principles.

Also, how come there is a basic metal material and then a whole metal raws which have considerably more metals in the first place, each using different variables? I don't really see the point.

Unless instead of having bones of "Platinum" you would be forced to have bones of "Metal", as Platinum isn't really defined in the material raws as such.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1124 on: December 19, 2008, 07:53:19 pm »

Way to much pointless argument about the nature of beauty.  Another time and place people.

Raws!  Things I've thought of-
1) Surely Eyebrows and Eyelashes could be incorporated into the standard face definition?  Or does it have to do with them being hair, and therefor effected by the color definitions?

2) I was going to have a 2, except I kind of blow away by the scale of it.  There's some bugfixing to do, but these aren't the final raws anyway.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.
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