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Author Topic: Improved Farming  (Read 133840 times)

zagibu

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #525 on: August 11, 2010, 11:19:43 am »

It's pretty easy to bring enough food to last more than a whole year at the moment. If you also bring some animals, you can even live off butchering from the point on, when your brought food runs out. Add herbalism, fishing and hunting and suddenly it becomes difficult to run out of food.

Farming IS a complex matter. I see no reason it should be simple in DF.
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Draco18s

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #526 on: August 11, 2010, 12:17:51 pm »

I worry that an increased complexity in Farming won't provide any real challenge for veteran players, yet make it more difficult for newbies to get out of the first year.

The idea is to scale farming difficulty with the size of the fort, so even veterans wouldn't just be able to "plan'n'go" as they can now.
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zagibu

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #527 on: August 11, 2010, 05:02:52 pm »

Well, he was mainly talking about complexity, which is not really scaleable. Either you need irrigation, fertilization, crop rotation, etc. or you don't. Of course, implementing an irrigation system will be easier the smaller the fort, etc. but the steps you have to do to get it to work at all are the same, just on a smaller scale. The new players have problems figuring out the correct steps to get it to work at all, not with the scale of the constructions.
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Hammurabi

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #528 on: August 11, 2010, 07:00:06 pm »

The idea is to scale farming difficulty with the size of the fort, so even veterans wouldn't just be able to "plan'n'go" as they can now.

What zagibu said.  From the info in this thread, crop rotations, irrigation, pH, nutrients, etc, don't scale in difficulty with the size of the fort.  Am I missing something?  How is managing a 10x10 field more complicated than a 1x1 field?

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #529 on: August 11, 2010, 08:07:53 pm »

Well, he was mainly talking about complexity, which is not really scaleable. Either you need irrigation, fertilization, crop rotation, etc. or you don't. Of course, implementing an irrigation system will be easier the smaller the fort, etc. but the steps you have to do to get it to work at all are the same, just on a smaller scale. The new players have problems figuring out the correct steps to get it to work at all, not with the scale of the constructions.

I think that pests may be able to provide some of this, as I have said in the past - the larger your farms become, the more vulnerable they become to pests, especially ones that target specific crops.  This would force you to diversify your crops, especially as your fields expand. 

If we could go even beyond the sorts of complexity we have right now, we might have something like soil runoff and a need to find a way to get rid of potentially toxic water as a result of overfertilized soil and irrigation.  I'd also honestly like to have a way to use some sort of unnatural selection of fungus as a means of combatting pests through a fungal fungucide/insecticide.

Alternately, although I'm not too fond of the notion, we could have increasingly difficult-to-grow crops that require more advanced infrastructure to grow them.  This is just the reverse of "make a crop any idiot can plant" idea that is, frankly, just a way to defeat the whole notion of Improved Farming to begin with, but it can serve some function in increasing complexity.

I've been mulling over the way that the proposed "sprinkler system" that works by hydrostatic pressure and a few pipes that essentially have holes stuck in them, plus a scheduled-dwarf-operated valve works, and we could possibly have fertilizer applied by simply dissolving it in the water just before it gets sprayed - many NPK fertilizers require dissolution in water, anyway.  Doing that, we could potentially get things on even more of an automated schedule, if it requires a chamber/workshop that would hold the water, and could not be used to let water back into the main water supply (which would mean Toady would have to work with contaminants in fluids).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #530 on: August 11, 2010, 08:48:32 pm »

I'd also like to say (in its own seperate post) that I've been thinking about outright procedural crops.  The basic idea comes from trying to solve the "problem" people have with certain sets of crops becoming a "permanent solution" to how to set up growth cycles - if every fortress's crops are different, you have to figure out what works best with what every time.

We would still need the ability to mod in our own crops, but we could have crops that change based upon a formula that keeps their difficulty in growing them balanced with their products. 

Even better, this would allow us to have unnaturally selected crops through worldgen-era domestication of crops, as had been suggested in the FoTF thread (sorry, I couldn't find the specific post in a search, or remember who said it).  This means that dwarves would have procedurally generated improved versions of underground crops, while elves and humans could have improved crops exclusive to their own culture, that will not grow wild (although perhaps you will find the wild versions of their crops).

For an idea of what unnatural selection can do, consider corn.  Corn was originally just a grass, much like wheat.  It was selectively bred for more kernels - from a dozen or so to hundreds on a stalk.  It was bred for larger, more sugary, and more juicy kernels - to go from wheat-like seeds to something that is filled with moisture.  In the 18th century, it was even explicitly bred to produce certain types of oils, fats, or sugars (Partially hydrogenated corn oil comes from corn that is specifically bred to just have glucose and sucrose in its kernels) that could be used in chemistry.  Even things like popcorn aren't dehydrated corn kernels, they're specially bred to have hard shells that trap the moisture in so they will explode when heated.

These improved crops could produce much more food per acre, but have potentially drawbacks.  The soil nutrient costs could be bumped up somewhat, especially as they become more extravagantly redesigned.  The major factor, however, should be in a greater prevalence of pests that target that specific type of crop. 

The more people worldwide growing that staple crop, the more a pest specialized in feeding off it will flourish.  Such crops may have more pests, or more pervasive pests.  The pests, of course, should be just as procedural as the crops themselves.

With luck, the ways to combat pests could be just as complex as the rest of the system - growing specifically bred funguses to combat specific pests or diseases, or even just using certain types of birds or introducing certain insects that will hunt down insect pests.  I've also previously lightly mentioned that some kinds of plants are capable of repelling types of pests.  Planting flower beds alongside vulnerable crops whose flowers repel the specific types of pests that will hunt some of your favorite crops will allow you to grow them in peace, at least as long as you don't get too excessive in your growing of the crop.

As I've said before, I really think pests are the best way to introduce a really scaling set of complexity as your fortress's agriculture becomes larger (Although sheer size and infrastructure for the water requirements will also contribute.  Don't forget, either, that fertilizer and liming agents are not necessarily found in infinite quantities.)
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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zagibu

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #531 on: August 12, 2010, 07:09:55 am »

I don't think it's a problem at all, because, as i've said, you can get food from many sources in DF, and farming IS a complex matter. Or why do you think that primitive cultures were not farmers, but hunters and gatherers? I think farming in DF should also be complex. New players can just stick with gathering, fishing, hunting, etc., until they feel capable enough of taking on farming.
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Timst

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #532 on: August 12, 2010, 08:12:55 am »

To be honest, I'll be happy with farms that just require more space. Perhaps not something like the screen Toady posted on the dev log, but at least multiply the current size of farms by 2 or 4 for the same results.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #533 on: August 12, 2010, 08:38:30 am »

why do you think that primitive cultures were not farmers, but hunters and gatherers?

Depends on what you mean by "primative".  There was at least basic agriculture being used in all but the most ancient of human... well, they weren't really "societies" until after they started agriculture, but they were mostly just family units.  They certainly spent less time hunting than they would have to spend farming, but at the same time, they occasionally just starved to death whenever the hunting was poor. 

The only real exception to this was where the land was good only for grass, and some nomadic peoples just hunted a herd herbivore, like the Mongols or the Great Plains Native Americans.

While I'd certainly make it an available option to let about 10-15 dwarves survive on hunting alone, you should, at bare minimum, be trading for food, at least.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Firehound

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #534 on: August 12, 2010, 09:12:09 am »

I don't think it's a problem at all, because, as i've said, you can get food from many sources in DF, and farming IS a complex matter. Or why do you think that primitive cultures were not farmers, but hunters and gatherers? I think farming in DF should also be complex. New players can just stick with gathering, fishing, hunting, etc., until they feel capable enough of taking on farming.

The first human cultures revolved around following -insert migrating animal here- and killing them. Then someone realized that some of the fruits that they had eaten the year before had sprung up where the seeds had been left. This here allowed for the creation of agriculture. Agriculture allowed for anchored settlements that wouldn't have to be abandoned so that they could chase whatever they were hunting.
Farms are an important part of a fortress, be it Dwarven or otherwise. And while it should be improved, it shouldn't be made impossible to figure out. A simple addition to the way farms are handled and or when what can be planted would be nice. I.E. No more planting in artic areas above ground and 10 crops a year. That alone would make it harder.
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Hammurabi

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #535 on: August 12, 2010, 10:03:21 am »

Copying from the dev thread...

Ad Farming:

My idea of farming in Dwarf Fortress is:
  • I designate an area of land as a farmplot
  • I choose farmers and tell them: "Farm!"
  • It works!
Anything more complicated is just bad design.

Actually, no, THIS is bad design. 

What's the point in even having dwarves eat or drink at all if you want all your food handed to you without effort?

The 'effort' would be building the infrastructure to make the farms efficient and productive.  As Jiri stated, the dwarfs would water the fields automatically, by fetching water in buckets from the nearest water source.  But the nearest source of water might be 200 tiles away, aboveground, with inherent dangers.  Such a design might require one-third of the fort to water full time.  The player could make the farm more efficient by constructing a water source close to the farm.  There could even be new mechanisms that would water the crops.

I'm not saying the above is a fully fleshed out idea.  But I think it is an alternative direction that could be explored.

[edited to fix broken quote]
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 10:24:48 am by Hammurabi »
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Shades

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #536 on: August 12, 2010, 10:13:46 am »

The 'effort' would be building the infrastructure to make the farms efficient and productive.  As Jiri stated, the dwarfs would water the fields automatically, by fetching water in buckets from the nearest water source.  But the nearest source of water might be 200 tiles away, aboveground, with inherent dangers.  Such a design might require one-third of the fort to water full time.  The player could make the farm more efficient by constructing a water source close to the farm.  There could even be new mechanisms that would water the crops.

I'm not saying the above is a fully fleshed out idea.  But I think it is an alternative direction that could be explored.

Isn't this the same direction as is being discussed?

However complicated a system is underneath the automated place farm and grow food should still be there. Your example of moving a farm closer to water is no different that going into a fertilisation system and tweaking the type or period to better match the crops your growing. In both cases you've shown a little thought and tweaked your setup, in both cases the actual work continues automatically, the effort is in created an efficient setup or optimise and existing one.
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Hammurabi

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #537 on: August 12, 2010, 10:27:04 am »

Isn't this the same direction as is being discussed?

NW_Kohaku says "Actually, no, THIS is bad design."  So there is still some confusion about direction.
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Shades

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #538 on: August 12, 2010, 10:32:59 am »

Isn't this the same direction as is being discussed?

NW_Kohaku says "Actually, no, THIS is bad design."  So there is still some confusion about direction.

No, what Jiri Petru posted was bad design. Actually it wasn't design at all.
What you said was a design that can be automated and is along the same direction but distance to water being the optimisation criteria. A single criteria doesn't give much in the way of choice of course, closer is always better.

Although I suppose if your fort isn't need water then it's two different distance based criteria that effect farm efficiency.
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Its like playing god with sentient legos. - They Got Leader
[Dwarf Fortress] plays like a dizzyingly complex hybrid of Dungeon Keeper and The Sims, if all your little people were manic-depressive alcoholics. - tv tropes
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right. - xkcd

Hammurabi

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Re: Improved Farming
« Reply #539 on: August 12, 2010, 10:47:09 am »

No, what Jiri Petru posted was bad design. Actually it wasn't design at all.

Go read Jiri's post.  He already said basically what I said.  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1478119#msg1478119

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Back in 1971, Nolan Bushnell of Atari said, "All the best games are easy to learn, and difficult to master," a design philosophy now treated as instinctual by nearly every designer in the industry.
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