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Author Topic: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome  (Read 12961 times)

KaelGotDwarves

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Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« on: August 01, 2008, 07:30:31 pm »

http://dwarf.lendemaindeveille.com/index.php/Ethic

Since wiki seems at a loss-

I was wondering on playing with civ dynamics for wars and such - already got fire sphere worshipper civs to always declare war on river sphere worshiping elves and humans with 100% accuracy(cross sphere religious wars - good article http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Sphere there and mod them in), but I would like to know the order of intensity of ethics tags to play civs off each other more than eating sapient beings and animal/plant mistreating.

I'm guessing in order of acceptability

ACCEPTABLE
PERSONAL_MATTER
MISGUIDED
JUSTIFIED_IF_GOOD_REASON
JUSTIFIED_IF_NO_REPERCUSSIONS
JUSTIFIED_IF_EXTREME_REASON
JUSTIFIED_IF_SELF_DEFENSE
ONLY_IF_SANCTIONED
SHUN
APPALLING
PUNISH_REPRIMAND
PUNISH SERIOUS
PUNISH_EXILE
PUNISH_CAPITAL
UNTHINKABLE 

NOT_APPLICABLE
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 07:32:20 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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Kagus

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2008, 07:45:15 pm »

Hmm...   I wonder what would happen if theft was justified by self defense...

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2008, 08:23:57 pm »

OH! Or, make Assault capital punishment, but murder is Acceptable. So it's OK to attack someone, so long as you kill them.
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Demonic Gophers

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 09:19:24 pm »

Seems like appalling would come after reprimand, I think.
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Nonanonymous

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 09:21:08 pm »

Does PERSONAL_MATTER in regards to theft and assault mean that the resolution may very well just be a fight between two civ members?
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 01:41:12 am »

Yes, PERSONAL_MATTER will mostly result in just the offender and the offended fighting. It still can result in wars, because it defines a rather free disposition to the action in question, so any race that deems the action offensive will take offence at it.

RedWick

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 07:30:30 am »

Hmm...   I wonder what would happen if theft was justified by self defense...

You'd have kender?
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Dadamh

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 08:17:24 am »

only real use I can find for ethics is to rig it so that everyone is always at war.

Acceptable/Unthinkable mismatch makes everyone froth at the mouth.
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Toady One

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 09:06:45 am »

I haven't put a lot of work into this since the whole system is likely to become more detailed with some more inputs and splits (aka gutted).  I also don't have a lot of specific historical events related to these at this point, so it just does general evaluations (in a sense abstracting some horrible faux pas or other dip/hist event which will later be made more explicit).  What they do now is check the


ETHIC_KILL_ANIMAL
ETHIC_KILL_PLANT
ETHIC_TORTURE_FOR_FUN
ETHIC_TORTURE_ANIMALS
ETHIC_OATH_BREAKING
ETHIC_LYING
ETHIC_EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER
ETHIC_EAT_SAPIENT_KILL
ETHIC_MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE
ETHIC_MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT
ETHIC_MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL


values against each other, and stick that number in with their personal leader evals and their historical event evals.  The exact numbers are (leftmost are the evaluator, indented are the target's ethics):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Probably made some mistakes there.  I think -16/-20 is what you get over a perfectly opposed sphere hatred and some of the worst fresh historical events also get you anywhere from -10 to -20.  Once that number is negative enough compared to some of the leader's personality facets, it'll also do a risk assessment (which the humans often fail against a stronger demon/gob opponent, and thus never start wars -- they let the gobs continue on snatching because they don't think they can win -- probably should have some world gen adventurers respond in that case), and if the risk assessment goes through, they'll start a war.  Roughly anyway, and this is all subject-to-change-as-fuck.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 09:10:26 am by Toady One »
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RyanW

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 09:45:41 am »

only real use I can find for ethics is to rig it so that everyone is always at war.

Switching ETHIC_EAT_SAPIENT_KILL to unthinkable makes elves no longer cannibalistic.

It doesn't look like those that find such things acceptable care much if their neighbors ban the action (probably reasonable, few civilizations would go to war simply because their neighbor doesn't mount deer antlers on the wall).  Might be interesting to add something like MORAL_OBLIGATION or NATURAL_RIGHT to the tags.
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Toady One

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 10:04:00 am »

I agree that a lot of it needs to be more detailed (the ACCEPTABLE tag as well as the punishments -- though the punishments should probably be primarily randomized within provided raw limits, though setting specifics in the raws is good too).  Especially if you have a lot of ACCEPTABLE, UNTHINKABLE and NOT_APPLICABLE tags (kobolds for instance) -- that mostly points to deficits in the system to describe a given society.

As one way to help this along, I'm going to add "values" to entities at some point.  Things that can't be a matter of law (without weird laws, anyway), but just a matter of taste, like valuing the nuclear family or skill-at-arms or rhetorical ability.  Societies with different values are prone to all sorts of trouble, even if they don't have these pure ethical differences on specific actions.  Of course values tie back over to spheres and ethics and personality, and no doubt there are other parameters that are needed to flesh things out as well.  A lot of it can get pretty specific though, and might be better suited for world gen, traditions, ceremonies, festivals, rites, holidays, sports, games, that sort of thing.  I wonder if ethics and values (and spheres, a bit more odd themselves) capture the main gist of things or if I need a few more wide angles though.

edit:  Although I wonder in retrospect if scrapping values and just extending the number of spheres and the value of spheres to an entity is sufficient.  I guess what it comes down to is, if a society values something, can they always have a god for it?  Anything I can come up with at 8:23AM way passed my bedtime has the answer "yes", but that's not going to be the final word, he he he.  Time to pray to the god of restful sleep and preparedness for tomorrow.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 10:22:45 am by Toady One »
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Zironic

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 10:37:17 am »

I DIDN'T NOTICE THIS BEFORE!

Here comes the race of

[ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:PUNISH_CAPITAL] and [ETHIC:TREASON:ACCEPTABLE]

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Tormy

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2008, 11:04:44 am »

Erm I still dont understand this Ethic stuff..can someone update the wiki, that what ethic tag is doing what + some examples would be good to have also. Not that I will start to mod anything now but I have plans for it in the future. :)
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Teldin

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2008, 01:54:43 pm »

Toady:

Why not have them in their own seperate ethics file rather than burden the entity file with more data? Have them in seperate ethics profiles in another text file and simply link them to the entities. Then split them into categories, like so:

Code: [Select]

ethics_default.txt

[OBJECT:ETHIC_GROUP]

[ETHIC_GROUP:MOUNTAIN]
[LAW:ASSAULT:PUNISHMENT_CAPITAL:N]
[LAW:LYING:PERSONAL_MATTER:N]
[LAW:THEFT:PUNISHMENT_SERIOUS:N]
...
[ETHIC:SLAVERY:UNTHINKABLE:Y]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:UNTHINKABLE:Y]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:UNTHINKABLE:N]
...


The Y and N at the end of each tag determines whether or not the civ will go to war over it, or generally how important it is to them. You could also replace this with a % number to gauge its effective weight among the civ or any other tokens to affect it.

Essentially the ETHICS tag would broadly determine a civilization's behavior in the world while LAW would determine how it deals with things in its own nation. With a much higher number of LAW and ETHICS tags you could add them on quite quickly and just forget them entirely to put a default ethics (maybe 'DOESN'T_CARE?') to the civ.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2008, 04:55:11 pm »

Not a bad idea. I'd like to have the ability to set some sort of variability in here, though. That way we could have human civs who are OK with slavery, and some who aren't. Or ones where theft ranges from a personal matter all the way up to capital punishment.
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