Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome  (Read 8276 times)

penguinofhonor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Minister of Love
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2008, 05:10:05 pm »

Not a bad idea. I'd like to have the ability to set some sort of variability in here, though. That way we could have human civs who are OK with slavery, and some who aren't. Or ones where theft ranges from a personal matter all the way up to capital punishment.

Yeah, it should randomly modify every race's ethics for each civ of that race. But only a little, so we don't end up with elves that act like kobolds and dwarves that act like elves.
Logged

Teldin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Canadian Bacon
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2008, 05:10:41 pm »

That's a decent idea, how about a random percent for each one? Something like:

[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:UNTHINKABLE:N:0:100]

The 0:100 would be a simple percent chance, you could add multiple varieties, like:

[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:UNTHINKABLE:N:0:90]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:ACCEPTABLE:N:91:100]

Thus you have randomness between civs; a 9% chance that a particular civ, when genned, will accept it. It would be a bit difficult this way though as I think individual civs don't have seperate ethics variables, just the overall civ type (ie. all dwarves share the same ethics, currently).
Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 05:58:15 am »

Yeah this is a decent suggestion, and a must have someday.  8)
Logged

Dadamh

  • Bay Watcher
  • !!world!!
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2008, 08:27:37 am »

Be careful with these!

I was screwing around with ethics in order to make everyone war more often.  That part worked, but then I tried to trade with the DWARVEN caravan and got:

"I see your low race still revels in death.  That poor creature..."

Don't make your dwarves into elves!

::Dadamh cancels fortress: stricken by melancholy::
Logged

KaelGotDwarves

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CREATURE:FIRE_ELF]
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2008, 04:29:25 pm »

Just wanted to say thanks Toady.

I had assumed a more robust methodology of ethics/value editing was incoming but this numerical information will make modding that much easier now.

I will update the wiki with more findings later.

Granite26

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2008, 10:17:59 am »

Slight Necromancy, but:

hmmm, seems like a good idea to go all out here.  Why not use ethics tags like the biome tags?  Define a set of ethics like people were saying, with the ranges, and then labelling it (Kind of like the body sets are done now).  Ethics:Liberal, Ethics:Conservative, Ethics:ElfTraditional, Ethics:Lawful.

Now that you've got a list, define the ethical structures that a civ is likely to have.  Just a big long list of ethics and their 1-3 scale likelihood of using.

Separate out the laws from the ethics into a legal vs ethics scale, and then tie the mutations of the laws through the governement to the controling body.  (Kingdoms will mutate towards the civ leader, Democracies towards the cultural mean, but kingdoms will generally have civ leaders from the culture.)  That'll solve your 'goblins adopting the ethos of the demon that controls it' issue without specifying it to goblins OR demons.

(Ok, I'm quitting now)

KaelGotDwarves

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CREATURE:FIRE_ELF]
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2008, 01:20:28 pm »

Well it's true that having a [LAWFUL][liBERAL]/[CONSERVATIVE] template for ethics would be nice, but as it stands now- filling in individual values allows vastly more different types of ethics/cultures.

Perhaps once ethics are more robustly filled out, ethic templates will be posted to the wiki of basic GOOD and EVIL type civs, with other crazier COMMUNIST and FACIST type ones as well.

Earthquake Damage

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2008, 02:20:04 pm »

...

Well, IIRC not too long ago Toady mentioned that ethics are now (in the unreleased version) determined for specific civ instances rather than entity templates (as we set them through 40d).  That sounds to me like he's doing exactly what you're suggesting by creating ethics templates and giving civs a selection of such templates to choose from.

Also, someone must create an Elite Liberal ethic for Liberal Dwarf Squad action.  :)
Logged

Granite26

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 02:35:02 pm »

Well it's true that having a [LAWFUL][liBERAL]/[CONSERVATIVE] template for ethics would be nice, but as it stands now- filling in individual values allows vastly more different types of ethics/cultures.

Perhaps once ethics are more robustly filled out, ethic templates will be posted to the wiki of basic GOOD and EVIL type civs, with other crazier COMMUNIST and FACIST type ones as well.

I'm not sure I follow you.  To clarify my statement a bit, I was thinking that you could pull out the existing ethics tags from the civ definition, wrap it with a label (I.E. 'Liberal') and then say that elves are 'liberal' without listing all the tags in the elf definition.  (This would allow reuse of specific ethical systems, as well as allowing some civs to choose a random ethical system at world creation).

Lawfulness is a separate ethics tag, on the same level as 'eats_entity_intelligent' that serves as a bridge between personal ethics and state ethics.  (Easy example would be the speed limit.  How likely are the citizens to obey the speed limit if they won't get caught.).  Basically use it to help decide how often the citizens will break the law to suit their personal ethics.

Micr0

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 03:18:29 pm »

I DIDN'T NOTICE THIS BEFORE!

Here comes the race of

[ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:PUNISH_CAPITAL] and [ETHIC:TREASON:ACCEPTABLE]


Wait... doesn't that mean that the race will only kill it's self and not it's enemies?


Just got the best idea!

Set [KILL_ANIMALS] to UNTHINKABLE
then set [TORTURE _ANIMALS] to ACCEPTABLE
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 03:28:19 pm by Micr0 »
Logged

Granite26

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2008, 08:32:43 am »

I DIDN'T NOTICE THIS BEFORE!

Here comes the race of

[ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:PUNISH_CAPITAL] and [ETHIC:TREASON:ACCEPTABLE]


Wait... doesn't that mean that the race will only kill it's self and not it's enemies?


Just got the best idea!

Set [KILL_ANIMALS] to UNTHINKABLE
then set [TORTURE _ANIMALS] to ACCEPTABLE

I read it as a slightly drow 'we'll kill you if you kill someone else, but if you happen to sell out his patrol to the dwarves, well, c'este la vie'

Mephansteras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Forger of Civilizations
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2008, 10:22:58 am »

Interesting thing I discovered during my modding. A race with kill animals set to SHUN, and no hunters/butchers/tanners, will still show up with bins of leather. I'm really not sure how that's supposed to work, though.
Logged
Civilization Forge Mod v2.80: Adding in new races, equipment, animals, plants, metals, etc. Now with Alchemy and Libraries! Variety to spice up DF! (For DF 0.34.10)
Come play Mafia with us!
"Let us maintain our chill composure." - Toady One

Noble Digger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Toady, can we get ETHICS clarified? All input welcome
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 10:52:34 pm »

I can see it now. Once workshops come out to the raws, I'll make the Dwarven Abortion Clinic, which requires a metal coat hanger and a bucket to construct.

Just Q on over and... (a)bort that Champion's pregnancy! It's for the good of the fortress, after all.

[ETHIC_ABORT_FETUS][JUSTIFIED_IF_DELICIOUS]

Hmmm, was this too far beyond PC for these forums? You're all hypocrites if you say so. ;)
Logged
quib·ble
1. To evade the truth or importance of an issue by raising trivial distinctions and objections.
2. To find fault or criticize for petty reasons; cavil.
Pages: 1 [2]