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[Tormy]

You'd think they'd at least give a shout out to Dwarf Fortress.

But it doesn't really surprise me, there's a Wesnoth rip-off on BYOND as well.

Yeah, Ive seen the Wesnoth ripoff also. I think its even using the Wesnoth gfx tiles. 

[Mr. T]

The interface for Dungeon Master is context based. Clicking or Right-clicking the unit brings up the options. The creator screwed up some parts though, and clicks or rights clicks get switched for certain items. The current version is also very buggy, so it's not so fun. The previous version was a lot better. Still slow though.

I do agree that Dwarf Fortress should be given recognition for many of the ideas. That's what bugs me the most.

[Joseph Miles]

They're ripping off DF AND Wesnoth? Here's hoping they get sued.

[MMad]

They're ripping off DF AND Wesnoth? Here's hoping they get sued.

As a general rule, game mechanics are not protectable and "ripping off" other games is perfectly legal (although embarassing if it's as blatant as this). Which is good for the game industry, to be honest, or we would have run out of ideas long ago.

"Ideas are cheap" is a saying often used to describe this situation.

[Stromko]

The creator of 'Dungeon Master', Ginseng, is apparently still active in the BYOND community, but is working on some other game on the service, Lands of Legend. I tried it out and wasn't impressed, it comes across as a graphical MUD / Rogue-like / Diablo with a bewilderingly obtuse interface. You can still build walls and such, apparently, but it doesn't seem to be the point.

It's really quite sad that the last available version of Dungeon Master was released last year because of this, since it actually offers gameplay that isn't easy to find elsewhere. Apparently it's actually buggier than older versions. Really goes to show how lucky we are that Toady's so commited to DF, when he releases a new version that's got crucial bugs in it it's usually fixed within 48 hours, but if you like Dungeon Master you've been waiting 10 months to have the server not crash every couple hours.

DM isn't really an online Dwarf Fortress, it's really more like a fast-paced Wurm Online that gives you the option of directly controlling multiple units. It dutifully clones a lot of the options that DF gives you, except the vast majority doesn't matter. DM also has some significant failings that make it tedious. There's no real automation for your units, so if you want to cut up and cook 9 fish, you're looking at dozens of double-clicks and a few single-clicks (it's an important distinction, click twice on the fish in inventory and it will be dropped before you choose what to do with it, meaning you can't do anything with it and it just lays there).  Path-finding is very weak.

Not having to manually carry every single stone, log, and chunk of ore in Dwarf Fortress,  makes up for ANY issues one may have with not having direct control over dwarves. It's certainly made me aware how lucky I am that all I have to do is some tedious job-selection now and then.

The multiplayer is what saves Dungeon Master and makes it, from what I can tell, the only worthwhile game on the entire BYOND network. I fooled around a little with a clumsy little dwarf fort until I was recruited by the cult of Jebus and so my six dwarves ran over hill and dale (occasionally falling down and breaking their legs) with some comrades searching for converts, and invading a goblin colony and killing a bunch of them. We ran off when all the orcs roze up as zombies, then started a new fort to defend from an aggressive and powerful foe. Then the server crashed. I started again about a half hour later when the server became available again, staying solo this time and making a tidy little fort, building up my population to a respectable 8 dwarves and working on raising the skill of my metalcrafter so we could get great weapons and armor. Then it crashed and it still hasn't come back hours later.

About 90% of the active games on BYOND are DBZ and Naruto themed, so I guess it fills a necessary niche for teenagers and otakus, but gameplay-wise it really seems useless without a DM server .. and DungeonMaster actually being stable, which it evidently isn't. There were also some 'murder mystery'-esque games, interesting idea but those already exist elsewhere so I don't see the point even if they do mix things up by being set on spacestations and the like, and the interface of the one I tried was the most obtuse yet.

(edit) I just read that a new guy got the source for D.M. on July 16th and is apparently working to fix the bugs, so that gives me at least some dim hope. I'm certainly not going to ditch DF, but as a change of pace, basically a different game altogether, DM's kind of neat and I hope it gets better.

[Mr. T]

Somebody got the source? And I heard Gin was paranoid about releasing it to the public... Either way, that would be great if it got the bugs fixed. The version just before the last one released was the best one, I hope that this person expands off of this one.

Also, Dungeon Master has multiple races. Dwarf Fortress fans need not limit themselves strictly to dwarfs (wtf spell-check doesn't think the word "dwarves" exists...). I pick lizardmen the most, since they need no picks or axes to dig or cut trees, much less cook their food to not get sick eating it, they make excellent bone weapons, and due to their structures using wood specifically, they can grow their own stockpile indefinitely. They're good with poisons, bows, and sneaking, and are the only race with a poison bite, limb regeneration, natural armor class, and the best hand to hand skills. Just wish they had the kobolds' trapping skills.

Essentially, they're simple to play because they're too damn hard to kill, and they're sneaky little bastards that give the kobolds a run for their money in breaking and entering and assassinations. Kind of like each of them is their own Riddick.

It's the races in Dungeon Master that also make the game an interesting, albeit more annoying (and stolen), alternative to Dwarf Fortress.

But it is true that games have no copyright for mechanics. If there was no Rogue, then there would have been no Hack, and thus no Nethack, which would mean no Diablo, and then worse no Diablo 2. Same goes for Goldeneye; were there no Goldeneye, Halo would likely have been in third-person and Half-Life might not exist (Timesplitters surely wouldn't exist at all). So I suppose you can't argue much with stealing the game's mechanics, seeing as how Blizzard never openly acknowledged jacking Nethack mechanics, either (and Blizzard makes money off of this, unlike Ginseng).

So MMad and Stromko I'll pretty much QFT, these people sum it all up.

[Othob Rithol]

Is this a suggestion, or a chat about another game? There are other forums here....one specifically for discussing non-Bay12 games.

[sphr]

I don't know.... I haven't tried it personally yet, but from desc and screenshots, it looks like an RTS.... not a "full" simulation.  DF is a marvel if you know a bit about whats behind... there's tons of semantic data that is already simulated just screaming to be added into gameplay in one way or another.  DM seems to lack this depth and potential.

Will my following line be apt?

DM is a game. DF is an alternate reality.

[Mr. T]

Is this a suggestion, or a chat about another game? There are other forums here....one specifically for discussing non-Bay12 games.

Lurk moar. Also, no more stupid questions from you.

[Mr. T]

DM is a game. DF is an alternate reality.

That's pretty much it.

Also, I'd like it very much if there were more information on using pumps. The wiki doesn't help; maybe Toady should add more on the pump in the manual?

[Joseph Miles]

Is this a suggestion, or a chat about another game? There are other forums here....one specifically for discussing non-Bay12 games.

the suggestion was, if I'm correct, Toady teaming up with Gingseng. So, you have DM's graphics, with DF's kickass gameplay. Or something like that

[Mr. T]

Well, Toady doesn't actually have to team up or anything, seeing as how someone else also now has the source. All Toady needs is a look at the source to see how a few aspects were done. On the other hand, DF might be so advanced and complicated that nothing might be applicable because the DM coding might be too simple and require a literal rewrite anyway.

[Nerserus]

* Revives dead topic, ITS ALIIIIVVEE!!* On a serious note, i have a good reason for reviving the topic: Ginseng indeed did use some things from Dwarf Fortress, but its mostly original, true, its not on the same level as Dwarf Fortress, but the thing is, its like comparing Jesus with a random Guy and saying "Jesus died for us, but that man didn't do nothing, he sucks!", sure, it's not perfect, but it's been dead update wise for quite some time so you can't expect it to be 100% great, and although i understand many of the hardcore Dwarf Fortress players want blood for a "Rip Off" and i would too, but the fact of the matter is: Does it really matter if it IS a rip off? it's fun, isn't that what counts? some people may not like it, thats fine, but is it really necessary to put it on Bay 12 to give it a verbal thrashing? come on, we're the better part of the internet, we can't lower ourselves to the level of 4Chan. (God forbid)

[Capntastic]

* Revives dead topic, ITS ALIIIIVVEE!!* On a serious note, i have a good reason for reviving the topic: Ginseng indeed did use some things from Dwarf Fortress, but its mostly original, true, its not on the same level as Dwarf Fortress, but the thing is, its like comparing Jesus with a random Guy and saying "Jesus died for us, but that man didn't do nothing, he sucks!", sure, it's not perfect, but it's been dead update wise for quite some time so you can't expect it to be 100% great, and although i understand many of the hardcore Dwarf Fortress players want blood for a "Rip Off" and i would too, but the fact of the matter is: Does it really matter if it IS a rip off? it's fun, isn't that what counts? some people may not like it, thats fine, but is it really necessary to put it on Bay 12 to give it a verbal thrashing? come on, we're the better part of the internet, we can't lower ourselves to the level of 4Chan. (God forbid)

Thanks for bumping a six month old thread to chastise us for 'thrashing' a game that no one even said anything particularly inflammatory about.    And then comparing us to 4chan.    How is this an important reason for bumping it?  You even say it hasn't been updated.

[Neonivek]

How is this an important reason for bumping it?

Because our flame war levels are getting dangerously low?