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[Christes]

I think that it's fairly well noted now that having gunpower would ruin the game.

I don't think anyone is really saying that.  Guns, yes, but most people seem to be in support of black powder, since it is historically appropriate and would provide many more exciting opportunities for Fun.

And if not black powder specifically, I think dwarves could find something explosive.  Maybe a plant (or animal, lol) extract?

[Rowanas]

DEAR ARMOK! Now we know what fluffy wamblers are for!

[Christes]

Oh dear.  That calls for a feep.

It would be awesome to build a fort around flufft wambler extract, though.

[atomfullerene]

Clearly the only way to decide if steam should be included in dwarf fortress is by an epic race between Urist Henry and a steam drill, to see which could tunnel through a mountain faster.

[Rowanas]

BAKA!

The proper way to decide this is to compare the rate of mining with a steamdrill to the face meltage (in metric, obviously) of a bunch of gobbos as you let loose the steam cannon. I would recommend adding a control group, namely, the dwarves held up in their steamship firing bolts down at the unworthy elves below.

[asper]

I'm extremely happy Toady isn't keen on adding gunpowder or steam power to DF. The primitive aesthetic is really appealing to me. The 'dark middle ages'-vibe of the game gets me into a truly dwarven mood. I'd hate it when things would all go fluffy fantasy or steampunky, bloated with "cool" gimmicks like a japanese game or something :/

Ah yes, for anyone trying to find loopholes with the 'pre-1400' requirement ("the chinese had paper", etc); there is also a vague geographical limit; we are only considering the European world and its environs... Not Asia or the Americas.

[Rowanas]

He should support steam and gunpowder, not build it in. I want more steampunky dwarves without gunpowder, but others may want to play a modified late 1600s DF. To each his own, for as long as Toady (armok be with him) creates the game he envisioned, we can do whatever we like with it.

[G-Flex]

Developing the ability for players to use steam if they want might just be wasted effort for anyone who doesn't use it. Seriously, he'd be modding in entire new systems just to support something that he doesn't want in the game proper.

I mean, you could say this about anything. You could say "if Toady doesn't want nuclear weapons or electricity, he should just make them optional!" but developing them in the first place still takes just as much time.


Gunpowder is a tad different since it's such an edge case.

[Luke_Prowler]

While I know steam power will never be put in, I'd just like to point out that steam power is, in it's simplest form, a windmill being push by steam rather than wind.

[Sergius]

Developing the ability for players to use steam if they want might just be wasted effort for anyone who doesn't use it. Seriously, he'd be modding in entire new systems just to support something that he doesn't want in the game proper.

I mean, you could say this about anything. You could say "if Toady doesn't want nuclear weapons or electricity, he should just make them optional!" but developing them in the first place still takes just as much time.


Gunpowder is a tad different since it's such an edge case.

How is it a wasted effort to allow support in the raws for "building X, uses Y as fuel, produces Z power"? We already have magma powered buildings, we have coal reactions, and we have power producing mills. You're talkng as if he specifically needs to make steamworks (or simulate actual nuclear reactions and electricity, as per your example) and then disable them with a checkbox.

[Elvin]

If it's allowed in the raws, it must be programmed as an object, like magma is, unless you were to simply make magma into steam, there would have to be a new mechanic to support said thing.
If he were to have steam as a powersource, like magma, he would have to program in the mechanics of it ( such as rises unless there is a ceiling in the way, will move sideways in order to continue to rise). This would either involve a complete re-write to the fluid dynamics to allow for it to happen, or for it to have it's own dynamics programmed in. Either of these options are time-intensive. The buildings would also need a redesign, as no buildings so far can accept a rising power source.

However, I'm all for Toady making the game much more moddable, by importing more stuff into the raws rather than be hard coded. But if he puts in too much he's essentially releasing the source code, thus making it a silly move really.

[Rowanas]

But all this being said, surely adding in anything else is a waste of time and effort for some people. how long did it take him to put in lye makers, soapmakers, cheese makers, milkers and woodcrafters? I never use any of them, but I know that a lot of other people use them and I'm glad they're in there whether I use them or not. I won't object to anything Toady (armok be with him) adds in just because I'm feeling selfish and spiteful.

[MrWiggles]

But all this being said, surely adding in anything else is a waste of time and effort for some people. how long did it take him to put in lye makers, soapmakers, cheese makers, milkers and woodcrafters? I never use any of them, but I know that a lot of other people use them and I'm glad they're in there whether I use them or not. I won't object to anything Toady (armok be with him) adds in just because I'm feeling selfish and spiteful.

Steam elements and labors aren't the same. Very poor comparison. The labors were place holders to be be eventually used. Steam is something wont be used by the game in its vanilla form. One is fluff, the other is frame work.

[Rowanas]

Still, the point stands. He wastes time putting I things I neither want nor need. No matter how he does it, there will still be the pointless possibilities of dwarves making lye, cheese and soap. I don't want them, so should I oppose them?

I would rather be grateful for the fact that I can have what I want and other people can have what they want. Some of us might have to wait longer, but he can't do everything at once. It's desired by enough people to make it a forerunner in the race to get done.

[G-Flex]

Developing the ability for players to use steam if they want might just be wasted effort for anyone who doesn't use it. Seriously, he'd be modding in entire new systems just to support something that he doesn't want in the game proper.

I mean, you could say this about anything. You could say "if Toady doesn't want nuclear weapons or electricity, he should just make them optional!" but developing them in the first place still takes just as much time.


Gunpowder is a tad different since it's such an edge case.

How is it a wasted effort to allow support in the raws for "building X, uses Y as fuel, produces Z power"? We already have magma powered buildings, we have coal reactions, and we have power producing mills. You're talkng as if he specifically needs to make steamworks (or simulate actual nuclear reactions and electricity, as per your example) and then disable them with a checkbox.

True, if it's just some generic system where you can call a building a "steam (something)" that requires coal and water to operate and produces some particular byproduct, that sounds reasonable.

But all this being said, surely adding in anything else is a waste of time and effort for some people. how long did it take him to put in lye makers, soapmakers, cheese makers, milkers and woodcrafters? I never use any of them, but I know that a lot of other people use them and I'm glad they're in there whether I use them or not. I won't object to anything Toady (armok be with him) adds in just because I'm feeling selfish and spiteful.

This, on the other hand, I disagree with. Lyemakers and soapmakers are in the game because they're a necessary and legitimate part of the stock gameworld. In fact, as of the next version those two particular ones will have substantial use. There's a difference between Toady incorporating a feature he wants but that some people don't use, and Toady incorporating a feature he doesn't even want to be a part of the stock game in the first place, and the latter would certainly have rather low priority over other things.


You go on to list things that are "pointless" like cheese and soap. The reason you find them useless is because their use hasn't been implemented yet, not because there is none in theory.

He can't do everything at once, but he also cannot incorporate every single feature anybody would want in their own particular fantasy world.