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[UristMcHuman]

Huh. I never thought about (or even knew) that. And to G-Flex, maybe you're right, but I want to have dwarfs be able to shoot their enemies before their enemies can shoot them, as some will be armed with crossbows, while dwarves would be armed with a deadly new weapon. Training to use guns should also be fairly easy (as it was in the real world).

If you want them to have long range with good accuracy, then guns don't really fit the bill. Some kind of mechanical projectile launcher would probably be better. Medieval firearms could still be useful for them since, presumably, dwarves also tend to fight in close quarters a lot, but medieval firearms were generally kind of crummy to begin with and took just about forever to prepare to fire.

Novice Rifledwarf ('rifle' should apply to all guns in later versions, not just rifles)

Why call them rifles if they're not rifles?

Dunno. I guess calling them Sharpshooters might be more appropriate

[UristMcHuman]

Guns couldn't be made out of wood or bone, either.

You would be able to get feathers to slightly increase bow accuracy, but they'd be optional.

I like the idea of fletching, basically putting feathers on one end (usually the nocked end) of the arrow.


And, yes, guns shouldn't be made out of wood or bone. Obviously, because the gun would explode.

[stabbymcstabstab]

they wouldnt expoled all the time just must of the time

[Sergius]

Guns couldn't be made out of wood or bone, either.

You would be able to get feathers to slightly increase bow accuracy, but they'd be optional.

I like the idea of fletching, basically putting feathers on one end (usually the nocked end) of the arrow.


And, yes, guns shouldn't be made out of wood or bone. Obviously, because the gun would explode.

A gun made of bone?? What a wonderful idea!

[nanomage]

Guns couldn't be made out of wood or bone, either.

You would be able to get feathers to slightly increase bow accuracy, but they'd be optional.

I like the idea of fletching, basically putting feathers on one end (usually the nocked end) of the arrow.


And, yes, guns shouldn't be made out of wood or bone. Obviously, because the gun would explode.

But vanes or feathers are mandatory elements of an arrow. They are not there to "slightly increase bow accuracy", there are there to make bow a shootable weapon. an arrow without vanes is no better than a thrown sharp stick.
I don't know if producing arrows from a log, set of arrowheads and bag of feathers (instead of just a log or bar) is really such a good idea - it just looks like very much more micromanagement and complication. I prefer to think that arrowshafts and fletches are sort of implied.

[sambojin]

Ok, I'll admit, I only read eight pages of this. It seems to be all about gunpowder and (magical) explosions and the flight dynamics of arrows. Which is all well and good. But as a discussion on pre-1400's technologies there's a lot more I'd like to see.

1: Ploughs. Just as a tool so farmers can go farming. Maybe with animal pets/servants. That was half the reason for some livestock. Meat/milk/pull a plough. Makes sense really.
2: Saddles. With saddles comes riding. Better quality saddles makes it easier to use your "riding" skill without falling off. Riding means cavalry. And stuff.
3: Gibbets, hung cages, random torture devices. Make a statement. Or extract information/secrets. Maybe it could effect the morale of invaders or annoy them more. When I think medieval/dark ages I think heads on spikes. Now I've mentioned it, so do you.
4: Material options. Could be a thing for alchemists to do or implemented using the "secrets" thingo. Your civ can both research/use either better or worse types of metals/materials. Damascus Steel? Nah, this is the steel of the Brotherhood of Lounging, that's at least 3% better at holding an edge and is a tiny bit crappier at absorbing blunt impacts. Makes for some really varied worlds, where the basic ingredients are the same (bronze is still copper and tin) but you might just be better or worse at forging them. Opens up elves to have some pretty damn nice sticks too.
5: Seige materials. Not necessarily seige engines (they required dozens of people just to move/construct them) but just simpler stuff. Ladders, ropes and braziers(holdable fire, weaponized for attack or defense). Your wall or drawbridge isn't half as defensible now, is it?
6: Bridge/road tolls. Just so you have a reason to build them. Nobles tend to tax the road they just made, with the promise of defending travellers. Could be another mandate ("Make a road from here to here.") and then gives you another sort of invader (Bandits. You must protect the odd group of travellers. Or have less immigration/trade and another pissed-off noble).
7: Taxes. Unless you are mountain home you get taxed. Food/goods/money and military service. There will never be enough plump helmet roasts again.

I know a lot of these things are planned. But really, pre-1400's technology means a lot more than were guns better than bows back then. They weren't by the way.

So can we discuss a few more types of techs (and how you'd like to see them implemented) rather than the "I want an assault shotgun because dwarves are cool!" kind of thing?

[stabbymcstabstab]

forgot earthworks they will cheap easy defense also wheels alloeing people to move there stone movers

[sambojin]

Aren't earth works what dwarves do naturally? Tunneling, channeling, walling, ditches, moats, etc are pretty much already taken care of I would have thought....

I'd also love the whole idea of thrown weapons. Just another sort of quivered ammo I guess. Throwing axes, spears, javelins, braziers/torches and even rocks have been used since prehistory for combat. Would make for a bit of a laugh for your dwarves to chuck a few stones at that elephant before chopping it up with a pick(?!). I guess it just becomes a z-level-or-not thing really. Can you throw an axe high enough in-game to hit someone on top of a wall? Should you be able to? Should ballistic arcing be included? To throw things over walls.

Would make it a lot of fun with fire and flaming arrows/bolts etc.....

[Vattic]

Aren't earth works what dwarves do naturally? Tunneling, channeling, walling, ditches, moats, etc are pretty much already taken care of I would have thought....

We still can't pile up dirt to make our own hills / mounds.

[stabbymcstabstab]

hey we'll have a new way to make mass graves visitor centers for the elves

[nitus]

There's no particular reason why technology in the DF universe would evolve in the same way that human technology did on earth. After all, I've never seen a goblin or a giant blob of magma that spits magma anywhere here on earth, either. Or a dwarf for that matter.
 
Why would they have saddles, for example? They dwell underground and don't ride horses. Even when we do see them using animals for labor, such as pulling wagons, they use oxen. Technologies don't exist where there is no demand for them, and a lot of the technology that did exist on Earth in a comparable time period would either have no purpose for the dwarves or even occur to them.

 
As for firearms, steam engines, etc, if we were going to compare them to historical earth technology levels -- and again, there's no real reason why we should -- they are clearly not at a place where they could build steam engines or sophisticated firearms. They lack the ability to build either a cannon or a piston with sufficient precision.
 
If they had gunpowder they could at best build crude bombards, or possibly some kind of very crude muzzle-loading blunderbuss. I'd personally prefer crossbows to a crude blunderbuss, if I were the General.

[Vattic]

nitus I see what you're saying but the position commonly held is held because Toady decided that any technology before 1400 is fair game for inclusion and that he doesn't want firearms. Luckily he has said stuff like that should be moddable in the future at least.

As for saddles I'd imagine the humans would at least have something similar.

[Rowanas]

I see the point about saddles, but how about Draltha cavalry?

Nitus, the argument that dwarves can't craft with precision is complete bollocks. We don't get to see it, but dwarves are traditionally master craftsmen, and they regularly churn out fine items, which we may assume are.. well.. exactly what is says on the tin. Fine.

[G-Flex]

Define "precision". Being able to craft extremely good masonry, sculptures, paintings, etc. is nowhere near the same as manufacturing pipe-fittings within extremely exacting tolerances.

[Vattic]

Define "precision". Being able to craft extremely good masonry, sculptures, paintings, etc. is nowhere near the same as manufacturing pipe-fittings within extremely exacting tolerances.

I don't think dwarves should be able to craft firearms by default. The only exception I can think of is things like cannon and perhaps things like fire lances, hand bombards, and their ilk. I'd agree that precision is a tricky concept and I don't think they'd have enough for making handguns but screw-pumps are a fair example of dwarven precision.