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[Sean Mirrsen]

I think you people thinking of z-diagonal rewalling are missing a point. Scaffolds are used for such tasks in RL, and if scaffolds are in (I thought they were) the next version, you can use them too, to get to the level you need cheap and fast.

[BahamutZERO]

I haven't heard of scaffolds being in.

[Mailbox]

On a tangent to rewalling and such, will we be allowed to rewall (and eventually when roofs are added) with materials such as bone, leather, or cloth? It would be pretty cool to have a makeshift series of tents for a dig in an area before the stonework and such is set up.

[ September 23, 2007: Message edited by: Mailbox ]

[Markavian]

Scaffolds aren't in, but there's no reason you can't build wooden walls/supports/ramps etc. as mentioned in FoF1 and then remove them later - that's pretty much what scafolding is: temporary supports for construction.

[Tamren]

i suggested scaffolding in the old FOTF thread, one of the pages in the 90s i think. I know you can make wooden supports to get where you need to go, but the idea was to make scaffolding as modular as possible.

The basic idea was:
1. Each tile of scaffolding is pretty much a ladder, but cubed. You can stand inside it and work on any sorounding tile, including the 9 tiles above you. You can also climb on top of it, unlike a simple ladder which lacks a platform.
2. When standing on any given square of scaffolding, you can move in any direction onto more scaffolding. Because it is an open structure this takes time and care. Working alone it is also hard to bring objects with you.
3. Each "tile" of scaffolding is constructed with "scaffolding beams", any upgrades to the structure simply require more beams. This is far more efficient than making a temporary stair out of 7 types of stone.

Scaffolding can be upgraded and taken down in any order. If you wanted a platform, you make 4 towers out of scaffolding and connect them with 4 "bridges" of scaffolding. You now have a hollow square which can be filled in with more bridges. You end up with a flat platform that you can work on. Each tile counts as floor space, so it can be used for stockpiles and possibly workshops as well.

To move material up and down the scaffold, you can use dwarf power, which requires 2 dwarves per object if you want the operation to have decent speed. Or 1 dwarf per level operating in a "bucket chain". Since stairs can be build on top of each other staircase "towers" are an easy addition to any scaffold. If better mechanics go in we could add cranes or elevators.

The main question last time was why would i want to use scaffolding instead of temporary supports? Well for one thing scaffolding does not block movement, just slows it. Scaffolding connects with itself in any configuration as long as it has enough support. And most importantly, when it comes time to take the scaffold down, you can dismantle a scaffold with one order no matter how big or oddly shaped it is. The end result is a pile of light scaffold beams instead of 10 different materials.

--
I know that might seem complicated, but with the advent of Z levels, players can now dream up crazy things. Dirt ramps or stone stairs will allow us to build things like pyramids and towers, but these things take time. Adding scaffolds would make things more "convenient" but no less interesting.

[Felix the Cat]

If scaffolds aren't in then why has Toady mentioned them several times?   :confused:

[LSTAR]

Toady has mentioned them several times. I'm inclined to believe they're in. However, he has mentioned that even with scaffolds there were issues with straight up rewalling.

[Talion]

quote:Originally posted by Faces of Mu:
<STRONG>
Oh crud, I think this was the main use ppl were finding rewalling a use for (otherwise, how can you get a rewall to attach to the side of another rewall and float over nothing?). I guess for the time being rewalling will literally only be reWALLing and no more.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what I would see if I were looking at a series of three rewalls in RL. Would they be one continuous wall, or three adjacent but unconnected constructions? Could one support another next to it?

Questions questions...</STRONG>

In the mule video, one of the the rewalled blocks is removed and the block above it floats. I don't know if that still holds true etc. etc.

[BahamutZERO]

quote:Originally posted by Talion:
<STRONG>

In the mule video, one of the the rewalled blocks is removed and the block above it floats. I don't know if that still holds true etc. etc.</STRONG>

At the time of that video I'm pretty sure there was no code for cave-ins there yet, since he hadn't started work on that yet. Does that mean it will collapse the wall above if you mine out below? Who knows! Although if you think about it, mining out in the mountain basically removes a wall from below other walls and it doesn't collapse, so...

[Mailbox]

quote:Originally posted by BahamutZERO:
<STRONG>
At the time of that video I'm pretty sure there was no code for cave-ins there yet, since he hadn't started work on that yet. Does that mean it will collapse the wall above if you mine out below? Who knows! Although if you think about it, mining out in the mountain basically removes a wall from below other walls and it doesn't collapse, so...</STRONG>

But it's still connected to the two blocks beside it, which are connected to blocks below.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by LSTAR:
<STRONG>Toady has mentioned them several times. I'm inclined to believe they're in. However, he has mentioned that even with scaffolds there were issues with straight up rewalling.</STRONG>

With multiple levels cave-in mechanics just skyrocketed in complexity. Before it was pretty simple, 7X7 square empty? Roof collapses. Now? Well what if you make a wall and carve out a hole in it, does it collapse? What if the hole is shaped into an arch?

I wouldnt mind if it was left out untill the mechanics could be done properly. it would let us make some cool and or ridiculous stuff  

[Arkan15]

Has it been discussed how much water is needed to drown something? In the tragedy mule video it seems to only start after the tile the mule is in fills to 7, and this makes sense- if "1/7 water" is ankle-deep, it seems silly that a dwarf would start drowning before 3/4.

Furthermore, if a dwarf is dropped into a pool of water which has more than 1 tile of depth, will he sink or float? If he floats, will he sink if he's in armor?

[THLawrence]

From the movies it appeared as if dwarves could go through water that was 3/7 deep. After that it became dangerous terrain.
I think they would sink if dropped into a hole. The mule didn't float and there isn't much difference between an ass and a dwarf.

Density wise

[Toady One]

There's been a lot of talk about scaffolding, but I've never said that they are in the game.  What we've got now is up/down staircases, which do about what scaffolding would do without having that name, though they are subject to the same above/angle restrictions as other constructions.  We can do more later.

A raw wall top...  what is that?  The top of a wall?  It has a wall below it.  A rooftop can have air below it -- map squares are divided into the upper and lower portions for the most part.

I think the main reason people were asking for rewall originally wasn't to do something from an angle above, but because they didn't like ugly ore walls and wanted to get rid of them.

Adjacent rewalls act like a continuous wall.  The configuration that somebody pointed out from the mule video is still stable even with the cave-in code.  Things like arches.

Water doesn't currently transfer temperatures.  I was a bit worried about the CPU costs of the extra temperature updates, but I don't think it would be a big deal.  Right now magma doesn't boil adjacent squares, or there'd be some troubles with its use.  It does heat them to around 132F, or somewhere around there.  Magma squares themselves are have magma temperature.

I'm not sure how I'd handle tents, but certainly any feasible material should be allowed over time to create partitions.  Right now I think you're restricted to the same materials as bridges.

I think swimming becomes optional at 4/7, and required at 7/7 (it doesn't care about creature size at this point, I think, and that would be a tricky issue, especially if you fiddle with dwarf sizes, due to path-finding again).  You can swim in a 1/7 if it is above a 7/7.  When I say optional I don't mean to imply that there's an adventure mode interface for that option yet, but you can swim around in adventure mode if you get into the water, and I'm pretty sure you can jump in with the additional movement keys now.

A dwarf should swim if they have swimming skill.  Otherwise, the dwarf will sink.  I haven't handled density effects yet, so everything that isn't swimming sinks at this point.

[Faces of Mu]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>A raw wall top...  what is that?  The top of a wall?  It has a wall below it.  A rooftop can have air below it -- map squares are divided into the upper and lower portions for the most part.</STRONG>

Ah ha!! I see now! I had wondered at some point as to how ceilings could be created between two open levels, but had forgotten about it until now. I guess we will have to deal with making an entire rewalled floor between levels for now until Today gets the famous paper-thin floors to be implemented.

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>
I think the main reason people were asking for rewall originally wasn't to do something from an angle above, but because they didn't like ugly ore walls and wanted to get rid of them.</STRONG>

Yes, agreed, and from what ppl are saying our interest has certainly changed, particularly after the tragedy mule video.

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>
Adjacent rewalls act like a continuous wall.  The configuration that somebody pointed out from the mule video is still stable even with the cave-in code.  Things like arches.</STRONG>

Great! That's part of what I wanted!

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>I think swimming becomes optional at 4/7, and required at 7/7 (it doesn't care about creature size at this point, I think, and that would be a tricky issue, especially if you fiddle with dwarf sizes, due to path-finding again).  You can swim in a 1/7 if it is above a 7/7.  When I say optional I don't mean to imply that there's an adventure mode interface for that option yet, but you can swim around in adventure mode if you get into the water, and I'm pretty sure you can jump in with the additional movement keys now.</STRONG>

So if we have a main hallway filled with water up to 3-4/7, then with dwarves walking through it over time should all get their swimming skill up naturally?