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Author Topic: Why is the development so slow?  (Read 21024 times)

Draco18s

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2008, 03:39:57 am »

Bit of explanation: The v.28 number doesn't mean that the game is 28% complete. It means that 28 core components are done. Please check here for a list of all core components, so you can see what's still ahead: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
The links are a bit down the page.

Curiously it also means that the game is 28% complete as there are 100 core items now. ;)

Ohhhh, THAT'S what the v.## means.  Huh, learn something new every day.
Well it's good to know this thread wasn't completely worthless.
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Shakkara

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2008, 04:19:28 am »

I'm currently working on a solo project as well: A 3d browserbased space shooter/simulator with real physics.

I think Toady is doing pretty well and I wonder how he is able to dedicate some time to DF every day. My project will take 9 months to complete (3 months of my own time to complete a playable, and 6 months to finish it as graduating project), and I find it hard to consistently motivate myself to get working on it. I often run into problems and the only way to solve it is to spend 3 days just thinking about the problem, before I can get on with programming...
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Shakkara

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2008, 04:23:41 am »

"...and never listen to what you have to say ever again"
For some MMO's, this might actually be preferred instead catering to whiners (like carebears) and drifting from there original idea and thus screwing the game up.

Heh. In Eve Online, which is the game I believe you are referring to (other possible candidate is Ultima Online), the bigest whiners are the so-called PVPers who believe they have the fundamental right to have easy targets provided to them on a silver platter.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 04:25:33 am by Shakkara »
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Neoskel

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2008, 04:27:02 am »

Bit of explanation: The v.28 number doesn't mean that the game is 28% complete. It means that 28 core components are done. Please check here for a list of all core components, so you can see what's still ahead: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
The links are a bit down the page.

Ohhhh, THAT'S what the v.## means.  Huh, learn something new every day.
Well it's good to know this thread wasn't completely worthless.
Curiously it also means that the game is 28% complete as there are 100 core items now. ;)


No, that means that version 1.0 is 28% complete, core wise which is not 100% of what 1.0 would be. Version 1.0 isn't the end product anyways.

Oh, i fixed your quotes there too. I hate it when that happens.
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dyze

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2008, 04:31:00 am »

while the OP was a bit too hostile, and while i understand that Toady is the sole programmer on this, i still see where gimli is coming from.
take the past year. if you look at the dev log, there's been a TON done. but if you look in game, it basicly looks and plays the same.
yeah we can now mass designate constructions of floor/walls etc, but for a non-hardcore df player, it's mostly stuff you might not even notice.
the resizable viewport would be the biggest visible change imo.

i basicly check the devlog and forums everyday, and yet its very seldom i'm in the mood to actually play the game.
this is basicly due to the cumbersome interface, combined with the currently annoying tileset support.

and while i totally respect that toady chooses his own path of development, im still puzzled by it.
tileset support is in, but in a gimped state. expanding it really couldnt be *that* much work.
and the interface, i think i read something along the lines of not dealing with it until most of the larger gameplay features are in, so that he didnt have to go back and rethink the interface again.
i just dont see how a well thought through modular interface would hinder any new features.
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Deathworks

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2008, 04:38:18 am »

Hi!

In the free game/mod community, there seems to be some sort of "I deserve this" mentality in a lot of fans.  "Why isn't this done yet?", "You should release now, you owe it to your fans", "If you don't add this feature you're betraying your fans because they're the reason this game exists".

Freeware development is hell.

-Angry Lawyer

I simply had to quote this for truth.

The thing is, I see a lot of "I deserve this!" mentality on the internet and I have seen how it has caused a lot of harm. I don't know why (maybe subtle encouragement by some big software house?), but the English-language internet tends to live in a myth of absolute lawlessness and disrespect. Artists and creators are simply used and abused by people redistributing their creations without giving due credit in order to get cheap praise by the masses and if they dare have anything else to say about their own art other than "I put it in PD", they get ignored if they are lucky or condemned.

Personally, I see two types of creations: Commercial and private.

A commercial creation would be a commission or something published as a (semi-)professional product to be sold. It's main goal for the creator is earning money, and so it is basically created to cater for the needs of the customers.

A private creation is anything that is not mainly created for the profit, and despite the donation system, I consider DF to be a private creation. Private creations are an expression of their creator. They reflect the thoughts, feelings, and wishes of the creator.

Respect for me means that I have to accept that private creations are not created for me as the audience but rather for the creator to express themselves. So, while I may give constructive criticism or express that I have different preferences, it would be unfair to make demands or complain about it not catering to my needs. It is not about me, so why should it cater to my needs?

Another aspect I wish people would keep in mind is the emotional bond. While the commercial product is often merely a product for sale, a private creation is more often than not something special for the creator: It is their brainchild, something they have invested part of their personality in. So, being abusive towards a private creation also means being abusive towards its creator, much more so than with a commercial creation, and possibly with greater impact.

I really wish people would have more respect for creators and actually think about what they are saying before they say it.

Sorry about this strong negative post, but this is really something I consider a major issue on the English language internet that has caused a lot of unnecessary trouble.

Deathworks
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TheSpaceMan

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2008, 04:49:58 am »

It's not just on English internet. The same problem exists everywhere in every language.
All kind of negative feedback with out a reason is... bad. People who try to crush your ideas becouse they don't fit in with their image of the universe or games or design. People need to think more about the idea instead of instant add it's strange and wrong to them. Stop passing judgement on other peoples hard work. If they don't like it, they have the choise not to play it. If they want something better, learn to program and make it. I am still the strong believer that if you haven't tried to make it yourself you loose the majority of your right to complain.
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McDoomhammer

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2008, 04:55:53 am »

In the free game/mod community, there seems to be some sort of "I deserve this" mentality in a lot of fans.  "Why isn't this done yet?", "You should release now, you owe it to your fans", "If you don't add this feature you're betraying your fans because they're the reason this game exists".

Freeware development is hell.

-Angry Lawyer

It's the "Customer is always right" mentality.  The horrible irony is that some people have it even when they're not paying a cent for something.

That DF has not visibly changed a lot is true, but shitloads have been done under the surface, if you'll pardon my elvish.  Some of the oldest and most recurring complaints have been fixed- designated dumping and building, notes, all the rest.  And DF is now operating on a more detailed level with respected to its world generation than... pretty much anything ever.  It's a rather unique project.  Taking that into account, complaining that nothing has been done and that development has not followed the path of everything else is rather missing the point- It's like complaining that an explorer hasn't made much progress in the direction of known destinations.

dyze, I sometimes wonder if this sort of thing is part of the reason the interface is low priority- make something look shiny and finished and more people will start demanding it obeys their expectations.  That said, while I don't know of what I speak, just in the last few releases the interface has changed multiple times.  There are plenty of major changes to the game in the works.  I can't imagine that upgrading the interface every time, no matter how modular and streamlined it is, would be easier than taking care of that in one shot.  Plus all the time spent on making it streamlined and upgradeable in the first place would be time not spent on the game itself- all to fix something that isn't broken, even if people complain.

EDIT:  Deathworks beat me to some of that- suffice to say, I'm in complete agreement, I'd just edited this twice already and didn't feel like changing it yet more to account for more cross-posts.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 04:57:33 am by McDoomhammer »
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Mohreb el Yasim

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2008, 05:07:36 am »

and the interface, i think i read something along the lines of not dealing with it until most of the larger gameplay features are in, so that he didnt have to go back and rethink the interface again.
i just dont see how a well thought through modular interface would hinder any new features.
well it is just my opignon and i am just a student in informatic but i feel interface is not so simple to make ... and even modular interface needs the engine or at least needs to have in mind the hole engine wich will be realized. May other people in informatic/developement confirm or not confirm me, but in the second case please tell me the secret ;)
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Mohreb el Yasim


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Angry Lawyer

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2008, 05:09:05 am »

I'm one of the developers for www.zombiemaster.org - I stopped responding to ideas threads because every time I said an idea would ruin the main concept (i.e. scrap the concept of being RTS vs. FPS and turn it into a team FPS) the whole team would get abuse.

-Angry Lawyer

thvaz

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2008, 06:16:15 am »

In my country we have a saying that badly translated means "If you give people a hand, they will want your arm". I'm sure there are equivalents in other places, because it's so true.

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Mohreb el Yasim

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2008, 06:19:13 am »

In my country we have a saying that badly translated means "If you give people a hand, they will want your arm". I'm sure there are equivalents in other places, because it's so true.
by us we say that with the small finger :D
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Mohreb el Yasim


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Muz

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2008, 06:24:30 am »

I'd consider the development very fast! DF has more features than most commercial games, and it's only being made by one person. And if you look at the things Toady's got planned for it, it's definitely going to be better than any game out there.

If you want it to go faster, donate some money. After enough money, Toady will feel guilty about slacking off, so it's likely that he'll speed up the work. Either that, or with enough money, he could hire someone else to help.
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Tormy

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2008, 07:12:12 am »

I just realized you named yourself Gimli. Just a quick name to post negatives?

He's got 130 posts, so no.

Yeah. Guys, gimli is my brother actually. ;D [Hes regged on the forum like 2 years ago, since Ive told him about it to register.]

Erm yes I adviced him to try out DF again, since he loved it in the past, and after like 2 hours, hes yelling at me like "wtf is this, the game is almost the same at it was a year ago"
Actually I can understand his concerns [and as I see some people agreed with him even here], but he forgot to realize that 1 man is working on the game.

Either way, I think that dyze hit the nail on the head:

while the OP was a bit too hostile, and while i understand that Toady is the sole programmer on this, i still see where gimli is coming from.
take the past year. if you look at the dev log, there's been a TON done. but if you look in game, it basicly looks and plays the same.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:14:50 am by Tormy »
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Teldin

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Re: Why is the development so slow?
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2008, 07:23:11 am »

I'm one of the developers for www.zombiemaster.org - I stopped responding to ideas threads because every time I said an idea would ruin the main concept (i.e. scrap the concept of being RTS vs. FPS and turn it into a team FPS) the whole team would get abuse.

-Angry Lawyer

Hey! I play this regularly. There are a lot of things I would enjoy changed about it but I suppose that's what current development is for.

Also, FUCK redqueen in the ass, I don't understand in the slightest why that map is so popular. It's boring and lame and I hate it and every goddam server has it.
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