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Author Topic: About LCS 3.05  (Read 3174 times)

Floydman

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About LCS 3.05
« on: May 08, 2004, 06:49:00 pm »

Hello.  I've played LCS for about a week, and just read about all posts in the last 4 topics in this forum.  LCS is a very great game, and reading from the posts, it promises to evolve to something even better.  I also have some bugs/issues/suggestions/questions to make, and I'll try not to be redundant with what has been said:

- LCS 3.05 still have a crash bug that seem to come up every now and then, for no particular reason.  Duration of session seems to be a factor, but me last try it crashed after only a couple of play days.  It occured at various locations, doing various things, no discernable patterns here.  This is one of the reasons that I have not been able to fully enjoy the game during the last week, as I kept losing some of my progresses.  May I suggest that maybe there is a division by zero occuring somewhere in the code, making it so much harder to find the bug?  BTW, i tried both the version from Underdogs (which is now 3.05) and the one from your site.

- Related to that, the bug wouldn't have been so much of a problem (like a pain in the ass) if the game sported a better savegame interface.  Just pressing 'x' to Live another day to fight EVIL is not good enough in my opinion; this gives only one savegame slot, unless you go out and make a backup of save.dat.  If you are an adept of 'save early, save often', this becomes insane, expecially since hitting 'x' will get you out of the game, which you then need to start again, just for the sake of saving before the game crashes.  It would be great if 'x' would bring a load/save screen, where we could load or save a game in one of, say, 10 slots.  In the same screen, there could be the option to either return in the current game, or quit altogether.  You could also have an option for viewing the score table.  And, on top of all that, maybe an autosave option, for when the game crashes and you did not specifically made a savegame at crash point, you would automatically be able to re-load the game at least at the day before it crashed.  This would make crashing bugs easier to tolerate, and probably remove some pressure from you about fixing them ASAP. AND remove some stress on the players about losing their fine squads     ;)

- Someone mentionned that it didn't make sense to make money by selling clothes you've made to a pawn shop, and I would tend to agree.  BUT, I like the idea of making money by selling high priced clothes, it is one of the only non-criminal activities that you can make money from.  In my opinion, the problem is not so much that you're making money from stuff that you've made (after all, if you've got talent), but rather with the place we are selling these clothes.  And the good news is that the game already contains the ideal place for such economic activities: the department store.  And maybe they should purchase it at 1000$ instead of 1500$, or else where would be their profit?

- Why is selling brownies illegal?  Are they hash brownies (dope), or is it because they simply do not have a permit in the game premices, or is it simply because they are raising money for a liberal organisations and the cons are simply putting pressure and repression to a perceived threat?

- Aren't the conservatives reaction sometimes a bit overkill in regards to the action perpetrated?  Sometimes, I send a squad to the AM station or the Cable news to simply highjack the studio, and after the show, when I am confronted with guards, I will try to talk myself out of the situation.  Sometimes it works, but when it doesn't , the guards immadiately starts shooting at my squad, even if they are all unarmed/undisguised/committed no other mischief.  Shouldn't they simply be molested with riot sticks or something and/or arrested if the squad simply tries to talk or evade with no other violent incentive?

- Also, when such little aggression is made on the part of my Squad, and some of my members dies during a mission due to over-reaction from the cons, shouldn't the media report it as police-abuse or something?  Shouldn't this boost public opinion of either the Squad's visibility and high regard or the critics on police force?

- What happens if I don't dispose of a body?  It would also be cool if there was a Honor roll of some sort to keep track of deceased squad members, since they are no longer listed in the DECEASED category once their bodies have been disposed of.  So that you martyrs do not simply end up as a small anonymous statistic.  The fact of being dead could also give a juice boost, since they have been killed while serving the cause.  This wouldn't have any real effect on the game, except maybe for the fun of having the names displayed of the dead people, which could be fun when they are people that you have worked hard at building up.

- What are army suits for?  I have seen a soldier once at the Latte Cafe, but there is no other military building anywhere.  One thing that I fantasize about with the game (but haven't been able to do yet since it crashes on me and I keep restarting from scratch with what I've learned) is to stage a squad to go to a public place and make a killing spree disguised as army soldiers, in order to try to put the blame on them and possibly alter public opinion in my favor, in a very machiavelic manner I concede     ;)   Would something like this work, or would this just hurt my public image as the game will always interpret such actions as belonging to me?  I think it would be could to stage terrorist acts and try to bleme it on the conservatives, this would enhance the part masks and disguise plays in the game.  For example, I would easily see some usage for the Jason mask, like robbing banks (a new way to raise funds quickly but dangerously) or simply to hide the identity of the squad members during some missions, to mislead police investigations for example.

- One thing that could be fun for hackers is that instead of simply asking them to cause trouble (which will often translate in DoS attacks, credit card fraud and pilfered files), we could bring them to some locations (genetics lab, Corporate HQ) so they can hack the computer(s) they have on-site.  I know it is already the case with the CIA HQ, but the idea could simply just be extended to some other buildings.

- In the vehicules screen, what does a car in green means?  I have noticed that once a car turns green, it can no longer be used to go to the outskirts of the city (well, I have been able to do so only once, but it didn't work anymore the next day).  It does so even if there is only one person assigned to the car, even as designated driver.

- There is also one thing with the U Hospital/Free Clinic.  It could be fun to be able to do something else there than only healing; ie dating doctors and nurses, who could become regular liberals, or sleepers which can come to your compound and heal injuries there instead of the hospital.  i find it a bit weird in the current version that you can get wounded by bullet and go the the hospital undisturbed, even if your compound is being raided while healing, and then being scotts free when in real life hospitals are due by law to report bullet wounds to the police automatically.  Going to the hospital or clinic would then be your choice only if your squad members are relatively unknown or warrant-free, and keeping your sleepers medical staff for taking care of the injured people who are actively researched by the police.  And injuries not done by firearms should not raise suspicion at the clinics.

- If a person does opinion polls repetitively, does it increase his intelligence or any other factor over time, like most other activities?

I would have other suggestions, but they have been mostly already been mentionned by other people, so I won't just repeat.  I'll come back if I think of something else, but otherwise, it is an incredibly rich and fun game, I have never seen anything like it, but somehow wished for something like it since I'm a kid and started to play with computers.

Floydman

[ May 08, 2004: Message edited by: Floydman ]

[ May 08, 2004: Message edited by: Floydman ]
Forget what I told about lowering the exp. clothes to 1000$.  I just went to the dept. store, and realized that they were selling them at 5000$ a pop!  And me worrying about their profit! ;-)  Selling it there makes more sense maybe than the pawn shop, but the prices are right!

[ May 10, 2004: Message edited by: Floydman ]

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Pono

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2004, 11:15:00 pm »

I agree with w/e you just said

i like the bank robbery idea for quick money... steal 10,000 from the bank... or w/e but all your squad needs either: lots of weaponry, disguise, a vehicle,
also..the bank robbery should act as a raid plan... you rob it..then have to escape... with like loads of guards, but it could also be a stand off..and take hostages inside the bank

i also like the idea of the keeping track of the dead. that sounds awesome. "23 recruits, 5 dead, Mike Someone: Decapitated, April 5, 2006
Beth Lady: Bled to death, June 6, 2007
kinda like that in the "Dead" category

im also a fan of the medic sleeper idea, and maybe killing spree in a hospital would be fun  :) or steal medical supplies to heal you during a raid, or steal medic kits? Get records on "accidental murder" of doctors fucking up a surgury, wrongful amputation, wrong medicine etc.

Sleeper guards would be a cool idea to guard your compound in case of raids.
more ideas on the way

heh

[ May 09, 2004: Message edited by: Pono ]

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Floydman

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2004, 12:38:00 am »

I have just happened to save a game just before the first police raid, where I plan to make the cops execute all my worthless garment makers (I just had the time to stash the good ones away, he he he), and right after the raid (with everybody in the raided safehouse dead), I have to 'G'ive up in order to resolve the raid, and as I press the 'W' key to make the other squads perform their orders, the game crashes.  It did twice in a row.  So, if you can't recreate the crashing bug from what I just told you, I guess I can send you the save file in an e-mail so you can take a look at it.

I am also having lots of problems with cars, a little help on the topic would help.  I have 7 cars, and when I assign one to a squad, sometimes it is green, sometimes it remains grey (I understand what the yellow is for), but in both cases my people could not go to the outskirts of the city because the game says that there was no car available.  Even if I am sure nobody else has the same car assigned to him.  Even if there is only one person in the squad.  Even if I know that it is the first time I use this car in a mission.  Could it be related to the alarm system?  Also, if a car is burnt (declared as stolen), maybe we could get rid of it (dumping it somewhere and burn it, or sell it to a used car salesman) or maybe paint the car to a new color and change plates, so it can be used again.  That could make place for a painter skill of some sort.

Pono, with your ideas of doctors messing up surgery, that just shows me the richness of this game, the number of possibilities of things to do in order to achieve the goal, and I have to lift my hat to Tarn to make such a complex game without being over-complicated, which could have happened.

For staging up banks, the initial investment wouldn<t have to be too great, and like in real life, the better the preaparation, the better the odds of success.  So you could just buy yourself a mask, a small handgun or a sword, or maybe even a crowbar!, steal yourself a car (if needed, since you can go downtown on foot, make a killing spree, and you all OK as soon as you hit the exit, it shouldn't be different for bank robberies), and take your chance at it.  Of course, the heavier the weaponry and the more people taking part, the better the chances of overpowering the guards, but a shoot-up should not always be the conclusion, or else it would not make real sense to risk such an attack.  And the payoff should be relative to the number of people staging the attack, as more people can carry more money bags.

I thought about sleepers guards also, but I don't see the need since during raids, all the people based at the raided location can take part in the fight.  But I may be missing something about sleepers, I haven't made any yet   ;)

Floydman

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Floydman

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2004, 12:42:00 am »

I have just made another test with my savegame, and even if I give up without fighting, it crashes as soon as I try to go to the next day.  Let me know if you want this save.dat file.

F

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Toady One

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2004, 06:34:00 am »

Yeah, I'd like to have a look at that file.  

toadyone@bay12games.com

I should sleep now.  I'll get to the rest of the post after I've slept a bit.  The new chihuahua is friendly now that its master has returned from work.

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Pono

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2004, 09:38:00 am »

Same problem with me!
I just stole some secret files from the safe in some location i run into some ppl..(a programmer) and i wanted to go past him...i shot him...alienating everyone and then i died by ganging up of security and prostitutes...it was a hideous site... blood everywhere...
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X

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2004, 12:36:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>The new chihuahua is friendly now that its master has returned from work.</STRONG>

Is that some kinda euphemism for something I don't want to know about?  :D

X

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Floydman

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2004, 01:56:00 pm »

One last word about cars, the more I look at it, the more I think there is a bug in this part of the game.

Last night, I played again a bit in order to try various things while waiting to see a more stable version  and/or with better save/load procedure coming out, and I had my leader steal a sports car, which I then assigned to him and only him.  The car was displayed in grey, which means normal I think.  I then went to the CIA HQ with no problem.  The next day, I wanted to go there again, but when I pressed "w", it said that my agent didn't have a car to go to CIA HQ.  I can sometimes be stubborn, even with computers (knowing full well that they are by nature more stubborn than humans), and I made a third try at it, and my leader could effectively go to the CIA this time.  I went to bed after that, but the car part does not seem to always work as advertised.

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Toady One

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2004, 03:16:00 pm »

X, get your mind out of the gutter!  Did you see the chihuahua post on the other thread...  the creature almost killed me!

I received the save file -- and found a few bugs with cars.  The colors were printed incorrectly, and there was a rather bad bug in the squad code for visiting sites.  I don't think I tested the game enough with multiple squads.  The upside is that if you keep your save games, they should still be fine after the bug fix is put up.

Yeah, "selling brownies" is just a euphemism for drug dealing.  Nothing about chihuahuas was.  No.  Bad X.

So...  the first LCS was released as a kind of joke.  I had downloaded Oubliette off Underdogs and then had a rather twisted moment of inspiration.  This is where the save game interface comes from, if I remember.  Eventually I should probably start sluffing off some of the Oubliette baggage.  Especially in houses with siblings...

Conservative reaction is also something that comes from the first version.  People have expressed some interesting in having it toned down, but originally it was just supposed to be a kind of invasion of the body snatchers joke.  They have a piercing conservative alarm cry, after all.  The game was not meant to be realistic, although it seems to be being pushed more in that direction.

I don't think it's a problem if you don't dispose of a body right now, although I don't remember.  Something was planned for that once I had done police investigations, but I didn't get there for LCS 3.

I like the Honor roll idea.  High score lists should be interactive and interesting.  This will be especially true of the dwarf game I'm writing now.

Currently, military uniforms let you bluff your way out of corporate sieges and escalated police sieges.  Right now, the game doesn't respect uniforms as far as shifting blame.  You could even dress up as cops and it wouldn't matter.  Something about the liberal smell, I guess.

Agree re: hospitals, although the clinic was supposed to be kind of gutter-ass and would not report you to the cops even in the case of firearms -- in that case I'd need to add a difference in both care quality and the types of wounds that can be healed.

I think searching for opinion polls on the net increases computer skill over time.

Re: graphics, after my Armok experience, the only games I'm going to do in graphics are Armok and ones that really require it (e.g. WWI Medic).  It's just time consuming.  However, LCS is open-source under GPL at this point (such a liberal, liberal license.  I wouldn't use it for any of my other games).  Kevin Sadler's working on a Linux port -- if somebody wanted to add a graphics interface, that person can go ahead and do that.

[ May 09, 2004: Message edited by: Toady One ]

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Floydman

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2004, 04:39:00 pm »

I kinda guessed that there was probably a difference at some point between the clinic and the U hospital, but couldn't see it at this point.  I understand that a game of this nature can be quite taking at developping.  Once the difference between "healing places" is implemented, it would porbablu easier this way than having to manage sleeper medics, although the idea was good at the beginning.

I knew from the start that the game sported it's fair share of humor and that it's derived from an already existing game, but seeing all the improvements put in it, and the suggestions from others, I think the game just gets more and more interesting, and while it is quite violent in its premices, adding a bit of reality (or at least just some more fun things to do )  ;) just makes it better.

I have just played a but more, with a different profile (since my other game is stuck for a while, might as well explore and try things), and made some more experiments with the cars.  I had one assigned, listed as grey, but basically sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, without me doing any changes.  But since you've already spotted the bugs, I'll let this topic cool down a bit.

Conservative reaction is not the biggest issue I had with the game, it's just that sometimes, especially in the beginning of the game, I simply wanted to draw public attention on me without being violent, in order to make sure that public opinion does not backfire.  But if it is part of the game as it is meant to be, then I'm ready to endure it and deal with it. (OK Cons, no more mister nice guy!)

Also, I didn't mean to add full-fledged graphics to the game, I like it's text nature, but simply move the interface into something that can be both point-and-clicked and typed at the keyboard.  I may look at the code, but C++ is not my main language of choice.  But hey, I threw up the idea, if someone wants to do it...  I'm voluntary to do my best to help

One last thing that I forgot in my earlier posts, if masks are implemented like what I described above, it would be nice if it were just an accessory, and not the whole piece of clothing like right now, so we can also wear some outfit at the same time as the mask.

That's all for now.  Good bug hunting!

Floydman

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Floydman

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2004, 02:09:00 am »

Forget what I said about lowering exp. clothes prices to 1000$.  I just went to the dept. store and realized that they were selling them at 5000$ a pop.  And me to worry about them making profit   ;)  So, it would make more sense to sell the clothes there, but the prices are right!

Also, I like the new interface to 3.06 when moving between locations as a squad.  Cars seems also to have been fixed, they are much more "reliable", and I finally could figure out what green means: grey is available car, yellow is a car that have already been assigned to another squad, but which can still be used if available, and green is the car that have been assigned to at least one member of the current squad.  Right?

Also, I played WWI Medic last night.  Not the greatest game of all, and certainly not a masterpiece like LCS, but still a decent entertainment and a innovative premice for a game: saving lives rather than taking them.  Keep up doing such original games, there is definitely a crowd for this, and I am part of it so far!  I'll look at armok later, when I'm done with LCS   :mad:

BTW, 3.06 works great so far, but I still exit to save from time to time just by precaution.  I just want to bring one game to satisfactory conclusion before taking a lenghty session with a fresh game.  I'll let you know if I find any other bug.

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Toady One

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2004, 03:17:00 am »

Yup, that's what the car colors mean.  At least in 3.06.  In 3.05, the car colors meant some very convoluted thing about the index of the car in the vehicle array...

He he he.  WWI Medic was a weekend project.  Armok on the other hand...  you can't really do anything except kill rabbits with magic, but once you look at the description for your character's species (under the "ESC" status screen), look at the paragraphs for the body parts and realize that pretty much everything is variable and was inputed in a species editor and has some kind of effect, you will at least have a confirmation of my mental problems.

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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: About LCS 3.05
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 01:58:00 am »

I like the idea of still permitting selling clothes or something legitimately to raise money. The reason I feel it's appropriate is because it reminds me of Fight Club, where Project Mayhem is (in the book anyway) funded mainly by making and selling soap under the name of the Paper Street Soap Company. Now granted, anyone who's either seen the movie or read the book knows it's special soap, but the sick irony came from its relationship to the upper classes. It's not quite as sickly ironic, but in much the same way, by making expensive suits, you're making money off of the filthy rich conservatives so that you can create a revolution to overthrow them.  ;)
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