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[Tormy]

Sorry for the double post but I wanted to flesh this out a bit.


For giving magic to races you could give them the job associated with the type of magic.  Specifically give the dwarves the 'hunger_mage' job.  This will allow them to perform the generate_mana job.  Then they get the 'healing_magic' job that allows them to use that mana to do healing magic.

At that point, it's just a matter of fleshing out the generation methods and the casting methods.  (these would have to be relatively hard coded, although the costs and associations would be free.)

That is, healing magic would consist of a raw file full of hard coded spells, with costs associated with them.

Hm this sounds weird....you mean that generating mana -for example- should be a job? 
Even if we gonna have mana, it should be an attribute of an entity, just like strength.  Generating mana should be based on various attributes and/or skills.
Your example could work for global spells or maybe for rituals even, if the ritual itself requires high magic.

[Granite26]

Hm this sounds weird....you mean that generating mana -for example- should be a job? 
Even if we gonna have mana, it should be an attribute of an entity, just like strength.  Generating mana should be based on various attributes and/or skills.
Your example could work for global spells or maybe for rituals even, if the ritual itself requires high magic.

Sorta.  I'm not thinking of mana as an inate property or even a physical thing.  Go back to the mechanics example.  There's two steps, generate power (windmill) and use power (pump).  The Power isn't an innate quality of the windmill, it just adds power to the system.  When casting a spell, the entity would use his generate mana skill to power it, and the cast spell to cast it.

Use Case:
Urist is in a fight with a kobold.  His combat AI tells him to throw a fireball.  He generates a 'cast fireball' task, which in turn generates a 'get mana' task.  He uses his hunger magic skill to generate the mana and then finishes the fireball spell.  Total time taken is the sum of the fireball and the getting mana (Super-Sayan Charge up Plus chanting)

Any unused mana evaporates.

'Job' may not be the right place to put it, but right now 'job' means 'the things an entity can do'.  You'd give them the mana generation capabilities you want in the raws.  It wouldn't make sense to give a critter more than one, maybe two or three if you're really pushing the system.

Other tidbits (some more theoretical limits of the idea than good for DF):

Ritual Magic could take a long time to work, by which it takes a long time to generate the mana.  It could also support reagents (Ritual magic needs 10 ticks and chicken blood to generate the mana)  The downside to reagents is that it makes it hard to tie effects to reagents.

Tying mana generation to specific spell types (coloring the mana) could be used for giving creatures pseudo magic innate abilities.  The Dragon has Innate_FireBreathMana and Innate_FireBreathSpell.  This is more interesting for innate abilities that tax stamina or whatnot.  (Innate_Mana implies a cooldown time, so every 20 ticks the beholder can fire any one of it's eyes kind of thing). 

[Mikademus]

Actually, I just thought of a problem for the rare spellcasters that don't eats. Thermal overload  They casts too much, they burns up in the heat of casting process.
So instead of:

Urist Spellcaster cancels spellcasting: Death.
Urist Spellcaster have starved to death.

It could alternatively have the effect of...

Urist Spellcaster cancels spellcasting: Death.
Urist Spellcaster have burned to death.

The mechanisms would be close enough, burn up energy to cast. So the choice's starve or burn to death, no Globicide spells unless you're willing to use your mages like mini-nukes... That is, expendablly and with dangerous side effects

ed: Both of those mechanisms will make players focus on providing heavy cooling and large amount of easily accessible consumables if they want an army of spellcasters without them having to stop to cool or eat too often 

If you really want to get crazy, you could inclue both: food/fatigue for generic spellcasting and igniting or freezing or whatever for possible side-effects of specific spells.

The combination effect sounds like a very nice mechanics. I remember the old game "Battletech: The Crescent Hawk Inception" (iirc) where firing your weapons build heat. Thus, it was advantageous to stand in rivers when firing because water dissipates heat more efficiently. So this could lead to some interesting consequences: mages standing in water when casting spells; forts designed with magma or other hot things where enemies will arrive or cluster to make their mages burn out faster and ice/water for the fortress mages to prolong their sustained magic capacity.

Of course, magic would not necessarily generate heat: cold or flux (hurting the caster and nearby creatures) or stone (making the caster slower, heavier and harder) and other effects are options too.

The advantage of all of these is that they all have consequences for the fortress design challenges levering what it already in the game.

[Tormy]

Hm this sounds weird....you mean that generating mana -for example- should be a job? 
Even if we gonna have mana, it should be an attribute of an entity, just like strength.  Generating mana should be based on various attributes and/or skills.
Your example could work for global spells or maybe for rituals even, if the ritual itself requires high magic.

Sorta.  I'm not thinking of mana as an inate property or even a physical thing.  Go back to the mechanics example.  There's two steps, generate power (windmill) and use power (pump).  The Power isn't an innate quality of the windmill, it just adds power to the system.  When casting a spell, the entity would use his generate mana skill to power it, and the cast spell to cast it.

Roger. This sounds quite interesting, since it's a step away from the "ordinary" mana system...and yeah it could work even. 

Actually, I just thought of a problem for the rare spellcasters that don't eats. Thermal overload  They casts too much, they burns up in the heat of casting process.
So instead of:

Urist Spellcaster cancels spellcasting: Death.
Urist Spellcaster have starved to death.

It could alternatively have the effect of...

Urist Spellcaster cancels spellcasting: Death.
Urist Spellcaster have burned to death.

The mechanisms would be close enough, burn up energy to cast. So the choice's starve or burn to death, no Globicide spells unless you're willing to use your mages like mini-nukes... That is, expendablly and with dangerous side effects

ed: Both of those mechanisms will make players focus on providing heavy cooling and large amount of easily accessible consumables if they want an army of spellcasters without them having to stop to cool or eat too often 

If you really want to get crazy, you could inclue both: food/fatigue for generic spellcasting and igniting or freezing or whatever for possible side-effects of specific spells.

The combination effect sounds like a very nice mechanics. I remember the old game "Battletech: The Crescent Hawk Inception" (iirc) where firing your weapons build heat. Thus, it was advantageous to stand in rivers when firing because water dissipates heat more efficiently. So this could lead to some interesting consequences: mages standing in water when casting spells; forts designed with magma or other hot things where enemies will arrive or cluster to make their mages burn out faster and ice/water for the fortress mages to prolong their sustained magic capacity.

Of course, magic would not necessarily generate heat: cold or flux (hurting the caster and nearby creatures) or stone (making the caster slower, heavier and harder) and other effects are options too.

The advantage of all of these is that they all have consequences for the fortress design challenges levering what it already in the game.

This sounds fun to be honest. 

Urist McWizzie prepares to cast "Ice Bolt". Target: nasty gobbo.
Kogam McPlanter walks near Urist McWizzie, while he is on his way to store something in the stockpile.
Urist McWizzie blasts the nasy gobbo in the head with the ice bolt.
Kogam McPlanter cancels store item in Stockpile: Frozen!

[Mikademus]

^ Also, it would mean !!kittens!! would be useful in battle... Unleash the !!kittens!! on the casters and see them combust!

[TrombonistAndrew]

So in practical DF, how would you set this up? Would you make it two separate trainable skills, one to generate mana and one to cast it?

Actually, this kinda fits into my "kill something" method of generating energy I posted several pages ago. Assuming, of course, that you permit different methods of generating mana.

Along those lines, you may end up adding a whole slew of new relevant skills - one different skill for a different way of generating mana, and one different skill for ways to cast the magic. This could end up allowing for some interesting magical combinations - from healers who draw magic from their own body to heal others, to necromancers who draw energy from victims to create undead - or throw fireballs - but not either unless the necromancer has the relevant skill. You could even have a specialist magic user "mana creator" who draws mana out of some source really well but doesn't cast except to create "orbs" to temprarily store the energy for other magic uses to use - and those magic users would have to have the skill to use the "orbs."

Ah, brainstorming.

Sounds like a standard magic system. I still like the concept of drawing mana out of the environment somehow (rather than drawing it out of thin air) which I added in these examples. It makes the cost/benefit a lot easier to balance, gameplaywise.

[Granite26]

Along those lines, you may end up adding a whole slew of new relevant skills - one different skill for a different way of generating mana, and one different skill for ways to cast the magic. This could end up allowing for some interesting magical combinations - from healers who draw magic from their own body to heal others, to necromancers who draw energy from victims to create undead - or throw fireballs - but not either unless the necromancer has the relevant skill.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but you'd have to color the mana coming out to allow necromancy skill to generate necromancy mana (Cause sexual healing mana shouldn't be used to create zombies, that's just icky)

Sounds like a standard magic system. I still like the concept of drawing mana out of the environment somehow (rather than drawing it out of thin air) which I added in these examples. It makes the cost/benefit a lot easier to balance, gameplaywise.

No, I agree, Ley Lines are a good example of this and totally modelable in this system.

[Silverionmox]

I still like the concept of drawing mana out of the environment somehow (rather than drawing it out of thin air) which I added in these examples. It makes the cost/benefit a lot easier to balance, gameplaywise.

There could be a map of ambient magical potential for each kind/sphere/source of magic. For example, fire magic is easier/stronger near fire, so terrain features related to fire give a bonus to water magic nearby (obvious ones are volcanoes, geisers, wood, but also materials, shapes or symbols associated with fire in that world (eg. sulphur, obsidian; triangles; imps).
The result would be that fire wizards seek out places near volcanoes, wood, preferably with sulphur and obsidian in the underground and build a triangular dwelling there, surrounded with statues of imps.

The same for water wizards in swamp deltas, with drop-shaped dwellings and quiksilver bassins, or air wizards that would build towers on mountain tops and cliff edges, death wizards on elephant graveyards in deserts etc.
A random example: the power source is jewelry, the associated terrain features are oyster banks; the associated materials are precious metals and gems; the associated shapes and symbols are squares, lemmings and the color purple. Result: the magic-user sets up his camp at a place where the ocean has eroded a cliff: on the cliff are lemmings, in the cliff face silver veins are visible, and at the bottom are oyster banks. He erects a square dwelling, which he dyes purple to enhance his magic even more.

The spheres of magic would need to be predefined with the associated terrain features. All other associations can be randomized at worldgen, though it should always be possible to restrict them. This way the AI can use the symbolism as guide, and it will give a distinctive flavour to the various magic users a player might encounter - or play.

[Granite26]

...Awesomeness...

Awesomeness

[dizzyelk]

Had a thought. Anyone read the "Man of his Word" series by Dave Duncan? The magic in that series was based on words. Basically the more of these magic words you learned the more powerful you were. One word made you good at one or two things you were naturally good at, two words made you good at anything, three words made you a mage sorta like how magic is generally thought of, four words made you an even more powerful mage, five words was too much power, and killed you. Something like that might be an interesting concept.

[Mikademus]

The magic in that series was based on words. Basically the more of these magic words you learned the more powerful you were.  ... five words was too much power, and killed you. Something like that might be an interesting concept.

Sounds a bit like this

[Tormy]

Had a thought. Anyone read the "Man of his Word" series by Dave Duncan? The magic in that series was based on words. Basically the more of these magic words you learned the more powerful you were. One word made you good at one or two things you were naturally good at, two words made you good at anything, three words made you a mage sorta like how magic is generally thought of, four words made you an even more powerful mage, five words was too much power, and killed you. Something like that might be an interesting concept.

Sorry but this sounds pretty retarded. 

There could be a map of ambient magical potential for each kind/sphere/source of magic. For example, fire magic is easier/stronger near fire, so terrain features related to fire give a bonus to water magic nearby (obvious ones are volcanoes, geisers, wood, but also materials, shapes or symbols associated with fire in that world (eg. sulphur, obsidian; triangles; imps).
The result would be that fire wizards seek out places near volcanoes, wood, preferably with sulphur and obsidian in the underground and build a triangular dwelling there, surrounded with statues of imps.

The same for water wizards in swamp deltas, with drop-shaped dwellings and quiksilver bassins, or air wizards that would build towers on mountain tops and cliff edges, death wizards on elephant graveyards in deserts etc.
A random example: the power source is jewelry, the associated terrain features are oyster banks; the associated materials are precious metals and gems; the associated shapes and symbols are squares, lemmings and the color purple. Result: the magic-user sets up his camp at a place where the ocean has eroded a cliff: on the cliff are lemmings, in the cliff face silver veins are visible, and at the bottom are oyster banks. He erects a square dwelling, which he dyes purple to enhance his magic even more.

The spheres of magic would need to be predefined with the associated terrain features. All other associations can be randomized at worldgen, though it should always be possible to restrict them. This way the AI can use the symbolism as guide, and it will give a distinctive flavour to the various magic users a player might encounter - or play.

Sounds interesting, but I don't know...so basically you say that specific spellcasters [based on the spheres like fire, water etc.]
a.) should be only active at specific parts of the generated game world?..or
b.) they should be found all over, but at specific places they should be stronger?

Because I don't like option a., but b. sounds good. 

[Granite26]

mana output per tick depends on how close the nearest ley line / elemental node is...  Means fireballs in the artic take two days to charge, but you can machine gun them out in the desert...

[peekama]

I like the idea of spheres, and that magic should be a rare/powerful occurance. Instead of spheres being "schools" of magic, however, spheres should be based off race, and centered around epic landmarks. I also agree with the idea that mages should be nobles, or an entity that doesn't take specific orders.

By "Heart of the Mountain" I refer to the suggestion thread that said that every mountain region should have a cluster of gems at its core called "The Heart of the Moutain". It would be immensely valuable, but mining it out would have terrible consequences. Adding on to that idea, this core could be a source of magic, but only for dwarves. Other races could get their magic from different kinds of landmarks; the elves an ancient tree, goblins get their's from the skull of an evil demi-god. Along with this distinction of the source of magic, would be a limitation on the types of magic usable by different races.

Dwarves would be skilled in manipulating metals, minerals, and in the case of the most skilled mages, the earth itself. Dwarven mages could inscribe runes (light giving, runes that prevent furniture destruction) on most anything with varying effects. More skilled mages could create golemns (at a great cost, possibly clockwork or stone; akin to strange moods). Ancient, wisened dwarven mages would have the ability to shape the earth itself( creating mini-chasms, small magma pools). To do these things, the dwarf would need to be near a Mountain Heart (the smaller magics might not require a mountain heart nearby, but the larger spells would be EXTREMELY costly, take a great toll on the mage, and possibly deplete the mountain heart's energies for many years)

The Elves would be channelers of the wiles of nature. Lesser Elven priests would have an affinity for animals and other beasts, which would follow the priest around and protect him/her. As the priest grew closer to the Mother Spirit, he/she could awaken the spirits of trees, and turn them into powerful treants which would fight to protect the priest and forest. The grand source for Elven magic could be ancient trees; trees that blot out the sun. When in the presence of these giants, the most venerable of High Priests could turn large swathes of forest into treants, or regrow a deforested area.

Goblin mages would be much like shamans. Lesser practitioners could hex their opponents, causing pain or other disabilities. As these shamans grew more powerful, they would gain the ability to cause physical damage through their curses. If a shaman lived many years and killed many opponents, he might be deemed worthy to carry the skull (or remains, or a possesion) of a past demon leader. The evil magics in the skull would empower the shaman to open a small, glowing pit. This pit could spawn a couple demons, or demoralize all surrounding enemies with the screams of tortured prisoners trapped happlessly inside.

Humans could posses a more traditional discipline of magic: force. Trainee mages would posses the ability to levitate small objects, or pull levers from a distance. As the mage grew more skilled, he would gain the ability to moved larger objects, and smaller objects more skillfully; possible even have a swordfight from afar! After manipulating space and time for many years, the mage would gain even greater powers. The old sage could hurl bolts of force (magic missile lol) at his opponents, and teleport himself about the field of battle. Using the magical power of several artifacts (I can't think of a good human landmark to be used as a power source, so artifacts will have to do) the mage could open a portal to another place, allowing troops to be transported great distances, possibly into the heart of an enemy fortress.


That's all I have for now. And yes, I know nobody wanted magic missiles or anything, but its an ability only usable by the "legendaries" of human mages. I think that is uncommon enough.

[bjlong]

Somewhere in here, someone put up the terms "generate mana task." I want to revisit this.

If mana isn't an inherent, abstract energy source representing mental reserves, then this could be a big part of the system. Moreover, if magic is defined off of flows, as was suggested before, then this could be a part of that system.

But, a better idea is for magic flows to be like radiation, effusing slowly through all material, but some faster than others, and affecting all magic and magical creatures. Mana should be "farmed" by the populace.

I was originally thinking of mana as something that the fortress collectively has, but this still seems too abstract to me--what if it was something with a physical representation, perhaps with a very low vapor pressure, so it had to be stored in flasks? And, furthermore, what if the vapor *was* the useful part, like gasoline?

One of the previous suggestions might prove useful for farming this--like using blood or somesuch to drain someone's life force. But the idea is that this isn't just a nebulous stat hanging around somewhere, but a real, tangible substance that could be given from one person to another. You could have hordes of peasants whose only jobs are to make mana, and sit there, eating until they burst so that they could generate enough energy to make their quota.